Not a Stat Geek- Apples and Oranges
Syracuse can't rebound.
That's been the story for awhile now. Syracuse has talent. Syracuse is great on the fast break. Syracuse plays great defense. But they can't grab a rebound for the life of them. On the season, Syracuse has a -1 total rebounding margin. Syracuse allows offensive rebounds on 39% of opponents' misses, which ranks 341th in the nation. Countless times the 2-3 zone works hard to force long misses only to give up a put back dunk when it's all said and done. Such shoddy board work is bound to be the Achilles heel that dooms a #1 seeded Orange team to a Sweet 16 NCAA exit.
Or will it?
When we talk about offensive rebounds, what are we talking about? Extra possessions. Sure, extra possessions have the potential to result in points for the other team, but not always. Plus, there's more than one way to create extra possessions. Syracuse is among the national leaders in turning over opponents. So how do extra possessions created by offensive rebounding and turnovers forced affect the outcome of Syracuse's games?
This Week: Apples and Oranges.
For starters, let's define the method used. The goal was to determine how many points are scored by Syracuse and their opponents on extra possessions, specifically off of offensive rebounds and turnovers. To arrive at these numbers, I multiplied the TO and OReb rates of Syracuse and their opponents by the number of possessions per 40 minutes in order to determine how many of those possessions could be considered "extra". Then I multiplied the number of extra possessions by the average points per possession to determine how many points were actually scored on those extra opportunities. Only Big East conference games were considered to eliminate instances where the Orange destroyed the likes of Fordham or Albany.
First, the bad news. Syracuse allows far too many offensive rebounds. With the size and depth boasted by the Orange, such poor work keeping opponents off the glass is simply inexcusable. In the Louisville game alone, there were several times where two or three Orange players simply watched the ball when a shot went up, instead of getting into position for a rebound. These are things that can be coached and corrected. As bad as it may seem while watching the games, though, the effect isn't as detrimental as you might think.
Yes, Syracuse is giving up 40.5% of opponents misses to offensive rebounds. Yes, Syracuse only gets about 35% of its misses. Syracuse is an average -3 in conference play on the offensive class. But when taking into account points per possession, Syracuse actually outscores opponents in this area on average. The Orange give up 25.4 points on opportunities created by offensive rebounds. They score 25.5. How is this possible? The most obvious factor is that Syracuse leads the Big East in FG% and it second in FG% defense. So, Syracuse gives up more OReb because, not only to they force misses, but force misses on second opportunities as well. On the other hand, they rebound less of their misses because there are less chances to do so. So, certainly, Syracuse can rebound better. And, sure, they could surrender that one offensive board that leads to a go ahead basket that leads to a crucial loss. But, overall, the battle on the boards is a wash because the Orange make better use of their fewer opportunities.
Now, the good news. Syracuse turns opponents over like crazy. This we know. What's even better is that they're also taking care of the ball. The Orange have an average +6 TO margin in Big East play. They force turnovers on 24.1% of opponent's possessions, while only giving the ball back at a rate of 15%. Most of the talk has centered around Syracuse's ability to get steals, which is credit well deserved. But they're also good at forcing errant passes, traveling calls and shot clock violations, all of which create extra possessions. And, of course, don't forget Fab Melo, who leads the team in charges taken.
The affect on scoring is notable. Between their low TO rate and PPP allowed, Syracuse only surrenders 9.4 PPG off turnovers. Going the other way, they score 17.8 PPG off of opponent's turnovers. So, not only to the Orange force significantly more turnovers, they're more efficient at turning those turnovers into points. This is certainly helped by the fact that many of those turnovers are steals, which lead to easy transition opportunities.
So, what's the total result? Between turnovers made and offensive rebounds surrendered, Syracuse surrenders 34.8 points per game on extra possessions. Between turnovers forced and offensive rebounds snagged, Syracuse scores 43.3 points per game on extra possessions. That's a difference of 8.5 points per game.
With everything considered, Syracuse proficiency at scoring points off of turnovers is enough to offset whatever points they might surrender on second chances. Is it enough to cover that deficiency all the way to a national title? It's hard to say. Syracuse has consistently been able to turn opponents over and convert those takeaways into buckets, whether they're beating Colgate by 45 or Louisville by one. That sort of consistent defensive effort isn't going to just disappear at tournament time. At the same time, as the percentage numbers show, offensive rebounds are easier to come by than turnovers. So I'd prefer that the Orange be able to rely on getting a key rebound rather than forcing a key turnover. The rebounding numbers are almost shocking and definitely disconcerting, but it's also something that can be corrected. Syracuse can only get better. Given the fact that they've managed to win all but one game even with such a glaring deficiency is not only a testament to their prowess at forcing and converting turnovers, but also a reason to be optimistic. If the Orange can rebound at even a reasonable rate, they could very well be unbeatable.
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I've been saying it all season and these numbers back it up:
We don’t need to drastically improve rebounding. We need to improve to give ourselves an easier shot at an NCAA run, but the improvement can be minimal and it will still go a long way. As bad as the rebounding seems, it’s not nearly the death knell some are making it out to be.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
Let's say the roles were reveresed stat wise
SU had the same edge in rebounds as it currently have as a deficit and SU has the same deficit in steals as it currently does as an edge. No one would really talk about SU’s perceived problems. However, there is no way SU is 26-1 and on top of the BE.
Stop the rebounding panic. Points per possession is about as telling as a stat as they get for a team in basketball. SU dominates that stat, that’s what matters. And in that stat SU is:
- 1.16 PPP on offense (1st in conference, 7th overall)
- 0.91 PPP on defense (2nd in conference, 22nd overall)
Pretty fucking good. Really the only team the beats SU in terms of the PPP net difference is UK (1.17 / 0.87). Who is also pretty fucking good. Sorry, not getting worked up on the rebounding thing, and truly appreciate this well written piece.
Go Orange(men)!
Re: SU and Kentucky
The fashionable talk among pundits is how there isn’t a dominant team in college basketball. And maybe they’re right. But I will say that Syracuse and UK have sort of separated themselves. You can talk numbers and who played who, where and when but when it comes down to it, who’s getting Ws? Who’s not losing to Miami? Who’s not blowing a 20 point lead in the second half? Yeah, the Orange and Wildcats have stumbled. And they haven’t always been pretty. But they have more W’s than anyone else worth mentioning (Sorry, Murray St.). If that’s not domination, I don’t know what is.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Feb 14, 2012 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Completely agree
I have no complex at all with UK being 1 to SU’s 2, Their damn good, SU is damn good. Just so long as SU gets the 1 seed in the East region, the rest is just ego stroking.
Go Orange(men)!
Thanks
I did a piece a while ago about the rebounding and how, even as bad as they are, the PPP numbers make up for it. I’ve noticed that the last few games the TO margins have really been in Syracuse’s favor, so figured I’d give it a more in-depth visit.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
The problem is
when you get into tournament play relying on turning teams over is dubious at best. You’re playing much better teams round by round and the amount of turnovers created dwindles due to other teams having good ball handlers. Michigan, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Notre Dame, Missouri, and Ohio state are among the least turnover prone teams in the country. Expecting to turn them over at the same rate is very optomistic and probably unreasonable.
For instance the 2010 team was one of the best in the country at forcing turnovers, but do you know how many they forced against Butler? 7. That’s it.
however giving up rebounds is much more than points off of possessions. It reduces the flow of the game. When team’s hit the offensive glass it slows down Syracuse’s OFFENSE. They control pace of play and force Cuse defenders to defend for minutes rather than seconds. We can dissect second chance points, but the real effect is on the tempo which hurts SU’s transition and makes points much harder to come by.
Good article because it highlights how SU creates possessions they lose, but I’m still very worried when they start facing teams that can handle the rock.
Noted
Which is why I only used the numbers BEast games. They were significantly higher when the OCC blowouts were factored in.
But you’re right, maybe I could have factored in possessions per minute as part of the calculations. But, then again. I’m not a stat geek.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Feb 14, 2012 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Teams that handle the rock,
tend not to be as good as rebounders. Kinda like SU.
If they face a team that doesn’t give up TOs, can rebound well AND is hitting their 3s forcing SU to try and hit their 3s, then yeah SU will be in trouble, but then again so would every other team (including UK).
Go Orange(men)!
What scares me most
is that we could just end up having a bad day in the tourney and be done. With a tough rebounding team, we could be toast early.
Without Gerry McNamara we wouldn't have won 10 f-- games, not 10
Win or go home
We’re all working towards a Final Four run. To do that we have to beat 6 tournament quality teams in a row. We will see teams the quality of Mich ST, Baylor, KS and KY… perhaps consecutively on two succesive weekends. Shooting, Dribbling, Passing, and Rebounding are the dominant activities in Basketball. Rebounding specifically is part coaching strategy, talent, hustle and heart. It can be improved by differing strategies, or by “coaching up” players. If we want to maximize our opportunities and give ourselves the best chance to win… we must improve our weakness’. Now we’re not going to give Baye soft hands; or make Rak a 3 pt shooter; but with emphasis we can ask our players to follow their shot (see JSouth’s hustle at Lville, and Coach Hopkins come out of his seat after the enusing Jam) or remind Kris Jo to rebound (notice at the end of game Lville, he did not leak, but went straight to the boards and won the bound battle) We can do these things regularly if we want to. Some of our rebounding deficit is coachable. No one believes our guys are not trying; but to beat KY, KU, and OSU we cannot be outrebounded by 8-10 in a game. Point blank…
Just some nitpicks
Offensive rebounds don’t create extra possessions, they extend possessions. For instance:
Start of game, we get the tip.
We miss a shot, grab the OR
We miss another shot, grab another OR
We make a layup
That’s all one possession. Turnovers forced and Defensive Rebounds do create a possession. I think your conclusions are correct, but your methodology is funky.

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