Big East Basketball: Top-Heavy, Down Year Or Just A Lot Of Pretty Good Teams?
Just what Syracuse Orange fans needed. The same season they reign as the No. 1 team in the land with a questioned schedule, the Big East seems to be going through some kind of down cycle.
Saturday was a microcosm of the conference's state of flux.
Syracuse held off Marquette, who was coming off a loss to Georgetown. Meanwhile, No. 9 Georgetown lost to West Virginia, who lost to Seton Hall a week ago. Then, No. 8 UConn lost to Rutgers (!), the same team that lost to South Florida earlier in the week. Finally, St. John's beat Cincinnati, which is weird since Cincy just beat Notre Dame, who spent Saturday beating No. 11 Louisville on the road.
And that all doesn't even include a discussion about Pitt, who has dropped games to Notre Dame, Cincy and DePaul...DEPAUL, so far. And I'm sure there's a handful of weird Big East outcomes I've left out.
What all of this means to Syracuse is that just when we were starting to get away from the "Syracuse hasn't played anyone" nonsense, Big East play is giving those schmedricks the same ammo moving forward.
But is it really true? Is the Big East "down" or are we just looking at a conference that's more balanced than it's been in a long time?
While UConn, Georgetown and Louisville will tumble in the rankings, Seton Hall should pop in there. Marquette won't drop too far. Cincinnati could have gotten in there as well but will have to regroup. Meanwhile, West Virginia and Pittsburgh have time to get it together.
The Big East probably won't have many teams in the top ten but there's a good chance we'll see a lot of Big East schools in the 15-25 range all year long. And as importantly, the "second tier" Big East teams are better than advertised, reinforcing that there are no days off in the conference.
It's a reason why there are four Big East teams in the RPI top ten, six Big East teams in the RPI top twenty and seven Big East teams in the RPI top ten.
We're barely through January and we've got a long way to go so let's not draw too many conclusions. But from what we've seen, it's going to be a different kind of Big East season. As long as Syracuse keeps winning, it's all just noise anyway.
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Here's what I think I know...
I know Sean and I discussed this Saturday via Twitter a bit, but I am going with the “a lot of pretty good teams”, at least, for right now.
If Saturday’s craziness provided anything its this:
1)Syracuse is the league’s best team.
2) Georgetown, Louisville and UConn are good, but have its flaws which, in a good conference, will get you an unexpected loss here and there.
3) Marquette is going through a classic Big East lull. If you’re not playing close to your potential your going to lose on the road in this league.
4) Seton Hall is this year’s St. John’s.
5) St. John’s isn’t as close to as good as they were last year, but they’ve got a lot of young talent and can be sneaky good at times.
6) Cincinnati, Notre Dame and West Virginia aren’t elite or great, but are solid. Making those teams tough, especially at home where all of are very good, for any team in the nation.
7) DePaul and Rutgers aren’t good, but they don’t suck this year.
8) Pittsburgh still has Ashton Gibs and head coach Jamie Dixon. Gibbs is struggling, but he could easily be the best player in the league.
9) Providence, Villanova and USF will be the bottom feeders of the league this year.
— Smith out.
Get busy living or get busy dying.
It's weird to hear
With how the program has done under coach Wright, but I have to agree that Nova will be bottom-feeders this year.
by JB44ever on Jan 8, 2012 5:48 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
It really makes you appreciate JB
I respect Nova and Jay Wright completely, but this year I’m asking: How were you so, SO good, and now you’re below the annual worst teams in the BE? And I think THAT is where we’re spoiled with our coach.
We’ve always been a known team, but since our Championship we’ve only built upwards.
And truthfully, I ask the same exact question of our football program: McNabb, Marvin Harrison, etc, etc, HOW as a coach do you go downward after that? (Assuming you’re not inept, of course).
Agreed
Although I will say Gibbs is one of the most overrated players in the Big East. I know he has had his accolades and seems like he is always 1st team Big East. I just dont see what he does more then shoot 3’s
by Mike Will is DoubleDown on Jan 9, 2012 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
and Gibbs is struggling because he's forced to run the point
He can’t setup at the 3pt line or run curls around screens to get open shots as a result. If / When they get Woodall back, they’ll be a different team.
Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-tip
But
a truly great player can create his own shots. I remember thinking that initially that that was the difference between Gerry and JJ Redick. During their freshman years, JJ needed someone to find him while Gerry was creating his own shot.
Now, as he got older, what made Redick so much better is that he learned how to make his own breaks.
Without Gerry McNamara we wouldn't have won 10 f-- games, not 10
by PoetryInMoten on Jan 9, 2012 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
RPI
Problem is after the top 7, the other 9 teams have really ugly RPI’s. All the way from the low 100’s to the 200’s. This is something the BE is not used to, so I would say this is very much a down year.
We're still not that bad on the bottom end of the RPI.
In fact, only the Big Ten has its worst team at a higher RPI than ours.
Agreed.
The bottom usually drags the BE down. Any other year DePaul is clocking in with some astronomical RPI right about now (mid-200s). The Big East rarely finishes the season without at least one team above #200 (even after getting a bump from all the other league teams).
This season, it’s only January and our lowest team is in the 170s and on the come-up. Actually, the three lowest rated teams (SJU, Depaul, Rutgers) are all trending upwards.
I was thinking this same thing
After seeing the late scores and Rutgers over UConn. It’s hard to tell if this phenomenon is due to the “good” teams in the BEast not being that good or the middling teams being better than expected. I’m inclined to go with the latter, due to the fact that the middle tier has some solid OOC wins (Rutgers over Florida, etc.). One thing is clear, though, Syraucse is definitely the class of the BEast so far. I don’t expect the Orange to run through the conference schedule unscathed, but I think they’ll avoid the bad losses, if there even is such a thing this year. I will say this, though. I don’t call it the BEast for nothing.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
WV came awfully close to beating Baylor on a neutral court
And would have if not for a missed free throw or a questionable foul call at the very end.
The BE is still a premier basketball conference. It’s not like it’s turned into the SEC.
I've been involved in a number of cults, both as a leader and a follower. You have more fun as a follower. But you make more money as a leader.
by Fly Rodder on Jan 8, 2012 1:23 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
BE has gone from being “the” premier conference, to just “a” premier conference. Big Ten is probably better than the BE and ACC is nearly as good
No way.
I’ve seen PSU, Iowa, and Nebraska play and all three would get absolutely dismantled by the worst-rated Big East teams. To have them rated above five BE schools, it’s absolutely fraudulent.
Schmedricks?
I’ve never heard of this before.
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Jan 8, 2012 1:53 PM EST reply actions
RPI
is such a flawed stat especially this early in the year that I hate that it’s constantly brought up here. If you play a bunch of RPI 75-150 teams your RPI is going to be inflated. Seton Hall’s RPI before the Cuse game was in the top 10 and they had beaten no one unless we’re counting St. Joe’s as a quality win. Let’s stop bringing it up until tournament time.
No one else is close
From week to week there can be 6-8 to Big East members jockeying in and out of the Top 25… When half of a conference is ranked, there are going to be losses, it can’t be helped, every game has a winner and loser and these teams play each other — that’s what happens when you’re the best!
I like sports, movies, and music!
Big East & Big Ten both have 5 ranked teams and they have 6 fewer teams in their conference. Hard to argue that “no one is even close”
Big Ten basketball often isn't fun to watch
but that doesn’t mean they’re not good. Once SU, Pitt, and WVU leave the Big Ten is likely to be the best basketball conference for a while (until/unless Louisville joins the Big 12 or UConn joins the ACC).
Other top teams...
Sean, feel free to respond to Seth with the following information:
UNC last road game versus a ranked team: Kentucky Dec 3rd
UNC next road game versus a ranked team: Virgina Feb 25th
Back UNC next road game(UVA might drop out): Duke March 3rd
Ohio State last road game: Indiana Dec 31st
Ohio State next road game: Wisconsin Feb 4th
Kentucky last road game: Indiana Dec 10th. Technically not ranked, but should have been obviously. Actually, we have to give them this one because Kentucky doesn’t have a ranked road game otherwise.
Kentuck next road game: Florida Feb 7th
For as much impartiality as possible, Syracuse last road game: none :(
Syracuse next road game: Louisville Feb 13th
Just looking at Syracuse, yeah, our road schedule doesn’t look that great. But neither does any of the other top teams. Also consider that all the top teams have lost their road games against ranked road.
Seth doesn't deserve a response
Hes just a douche bag who for some reason hates Syracuse. Or is a homer for some other team in the rankings.
by pegs on Jan 8, 2012 4:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But of course
I have no self control, and ended up responding to him on twitter.
by pegs on Jan 8, 2012 4:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Really
The road slate doesn’t matter. Get W’s and it doesn’t matter who you play. As the late Al Davis would say, “Just win, baby”.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Jan 8, 2012 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
What people don't realize is a lot of these road games aren't contract games.
They’re essentially pseudo-conference games against established secondary rivals. They play every year, so they’re not unique “true OOC road games” that the media wants. You can also put things like the ACC-Big Ten challenge in this category.
Let’s look at some of the other top teams’ OOC schedules:
Kentucky: Plays UNC, Louisville, and Indiana every year, either home or away, so we’re going to discount these as “conference” games. We’re also counting the game against St. John’s (also at home) as a conference game since this is forced by the SEC-Big East challenge. This year, the other games against Power 8+8 teams were against Kansas at the Garden, and against Penn State and Old Dominion on other neutral sites. Now they should get some credit ideally for playing KU on a neutral site, but the fact is that it wasn’t a scheduled “true road game” in the kind that ESPN LOVES to chide us for. Their ONLY true road game OOC was at IU, and that game is played every year. UK had no “Let’s play each other!” games, at home or away.
North Carolina: Plays Kentucky every year OOC, so this one doesn’t count. They DID play another “true road game” but it was at UNC-Asheville (yay!). Now their OOC slate does include some Power 8+8 teams, but they’re all at home or at neutral sites, which is what matters here. The game against Wisconsin doesn’t count because that’s an ACC-Big Ten Challenge game. The game against Texas was the only game UNC scheduled as part of a “let’s play each other!” deal, but it was at home. They did have several neutral site games as well, against Mississippi Valley State (hooray!) and Tennessee State (Hurrah!), but also games against MSU (which fans of either team were barred from attending unless they were military top brass), South Carolina, or UNLV (the latter of which they don’t get credit for until Syracuse-in-Tampa and Syracuse-in-KC count as road games).
Ohio State: Gets credit from me. They had three “let’s play each other!” games this year, and two of them were on the road (at Kansas, at South Carolina) and one was at home (Florida). Duke doesn’t count because that’s an ACC-Big Ten challenge game. So I’m going to give them credit where it’s due.
So basically, the only team of the teams everyone talks about that should get credit for their schedule is Ohio State. Our schedule was very similar to UNC’s, with one “Let’s play each other!” game that was on the road. Florida was a pseudo-conference game, and we did host two other Power 8+8 teams, even if they were Fordham and GW. When we go to the ACC we’re going to have our pseudo-conference games rise, with Georgetown, St. John’s and the ACC-Big Ten challenge all on our schedule, good thing too because we’re going to be playing in a conference with only three other perennial contenders.
It's like I'm taking crazy pills
SethDavisHoops Let’s pretend you didn’t write that. What’s neutral about Kansas City? RT @bengeorge13: KU loss to Davidson was on a neutral court
So it counts as a home game when they lose to Davidson but when Cuse beats them there it’s a neutral court…………. you can’t even make this crap up.
by turntheradioff on Jan 9, 2012 1:29 AM EST up reply actions
It's all good
Dickie V has our back
https://mobile.twitter.com/DickieV/status/155791223402139648
by pegs on Jan 8, 2012 4:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Great
Just what we needed, Big East football has now infected Big East basketball. At the rate we’re going, by the time we get out of this conference, every team will finish .500 for both football and basketball, while starting to infect lacrosse.
Without Gerry McNamara we wouldn't have won 10 f-- games, not 10
in all fairness
Syracuse DOES have control of Big East scheduling AND how good their opponents are…
Utahns for Orange
UCONN
UConn is the only team that really scares me. Calhoun has a lot of young talent there. If he gets them tuned up and running well by end of season, they will be very dangerous. We’ll also need to wait and see how Cuse fares against its personal hoops kryptonite in L’ville and Pitt
We will not rest until we see these capitalist octopuses annihilated.
-Che Marrone
On a lighter note
Now that Seton Hall is good and Rutgers has shown flashes of potential, do you think Pat Forde will play up his trophy game?
Their game this year
will be an epic for the ages.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away. Thankfully he is giving much more now.
by bigbluethruandthru on Jan 8, 2012 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
Historical RealTimeRPI.com ranks
Below are the RPI rankings for the BE and the bottom 4 worst RPIs. This year has the second best worst RPI (173) since 2003. Looks like this season is shaping up to be slightly better than average given their history:
11-12 rank 2 133, 159, 163, 173
10-11 rank 1 121, 154, 155, 234
09-10 rank 2 82, 140, 161, 212
08-09 rank 4 150, 190, 195, 206
07-08 rank 5 154, 157, 181, 209
06-07 rank 5 156, 175, 194, 216
05-06 rank 2 99, 106, 139, 236
04-05 rank 2 153, 190, 228, 253
03-04 rank 3 83, 130, 160, 159

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