Syracuse Orange Starting Five vs. Syracuse Orange Second Five
Everyone is raving about the Syracuse Orange basketball team's bench scoring. But you and I know that's a bit of a misnomer. Hell, even Jim Boeheim knows it.
Here's the starting five for Syracuse every night: Scoop Jardine, Brandon Triche, Kris Joseph, Fab Melo & Rakeem Christmas.
Here's the five players who see the most court time on a nightly basis (in order): Kris Joseph, C.J. Fair, Fab Melo, Dion Waiters and Brandon Triche.
Starter Scoop Jardine is just on the cusp at No. 6 while starter Rak Christmas clocks in at No. 8 (slightly ahead of Baye if you can believe it).
So when folks rave about the Orange's bench scoring, I think we can all agree it's slightly misleading. Appreciated, but misleading.
And you know, this really begs the question...who would win, the Syracuse First Five or the Syracuse Second Five?
Scoop, Triche, KrisJo, Melo & Rak vs. Dion, C.J., James Southerland, Baye Moussa Keita and Michael Carter-Williams.
Honestly, it would depend. Like usual, it would depend on what kind of night folks like Scoop, Triche and Southerland were having.
My inclination is to take the Second Five due to the presence of Dion and C.J. but I think MCW is a big liability against Scoop/Triche up top. I think you have give the Starting Five their veteran due. Plus, I'd rather go it with a freshman big man rather than a freshman guard.
We might disagree on who would win the game but I think we can all agree that the game wouldn't be a true road game, and therefore, wouldn't count.
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I'm starting to think:
IN DION WE TRUST
by voteprime on Dec 19, 2011 5:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This
"If Gerry played at Notre Dame he'd probably average 25 a game for four years because that's what he gets when he comes here."-JB
by theNYsportsguy on Dec 19, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
can I just say
That I love that this is a serious poll question, and I love that I really had to think hard about it, and I love our bench and this team.
That is all.
by Orange&P on Dec 19, 2011 5:36 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Let's have fun with stats
Position by position stat comparisons / 40 minutes.
To be continued…
by Mike I. on Dec 19, 2011 5:38 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Point Guard
Scoop Jardine – 16.99 pts / 7.55 assists / 3.6 steals / 4.12 turnovers
Michael Carter-Williams – 7.68 pts / 8.96 assists / 3.2 steals / 2.56 turnovers
I would trade a little ball handling and decision making for 9 points per game.
Shooting Guard
Brandon Triche – 18.2 pts / 5.69 assists / 1.95 steals / 2.92 turnovers
Dion Waiters – 22.92 pts / 5.53 assists / 4.06 steals / 2.76 turnovers
This one is easy based just on steals. Dion has also been more consistent.
Small Forward
Kris Joseph – 19.8 pts / 8.27 rebounds / 1.7 steals / 1.5 turnovers
James Southerland – 22.17 pts / 7.54 rebounds / 3.43 steals / .91 turnovers (also 2.2 blocks)
Well, color me impressed by Southerland’s numbers. But still, Southie is heavily influenced by a small sample size versus inferior competition. I would stay with KJ there.
Southerland is, I believe,
10th in the country in individual player efficiency, and tops on the Cuse. He’ll probably regress but he’s still making the best of his playing time despite a couple bad games.
It's the most bullshit thing I've seen in thirty years.
by Girardi Party on Dec 19, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Southie is a prime example
Of why I don’t put too much stock in advanced metrics. Don’t get me wrong, I like what he does (when he’s on) and he’s taken big step forward this season. But advanced metrics assume equal minutes and that’s the one thing that can’t be predicted. If a player isn’t getting burn, it has to be for a reason. So whether it’s constantly blowing defensive assignments, not being in the right place offensively or whatever other non-statistical factors there are, advnaced metrics don’t/can’t take those things into account when saying, “Well, so and so would have great numbers if he just got more minutes”.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Dec 20, 2011 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I agree
He’d normal out and regress for sure if he were playing 30+ min/game, but I think he’d still come out as (at least) an above-average player. Defense in all sports—but especially basketball—is so hard to quantify individually.
It's the most bullshit thing I've seen in thirty years.
by Girardi Party on Dec 20, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Power Forward
Rakeem Christmas – 10.35 pts / 8.92 rebounds / 1.43 blocks / 3.16 turnovers
CJ Fair – 12.68 points / 8.95 rebounds / .45 blocks / 1.64 turnovers
Yeah, this one isn’t fair. Sample size again. At this stage in their careers, I am taking Fair any day and twice on Sunday.
Center
Fabricio de Melo – 11.4 points / 9.0 rebounds / 4.1 blocks / 2.4 turnovers
Baye Keita – 10.96 / 9.5 rebounds / 3.26 blocks / .9 turnovers
Sample size again. It’s stunning how few minutes Baye is getting. And what a difference on defense Fab is making.
You forgot
8.2 fouls for Keita haha
It's the most bullshit thing I've seen in thirty years.
by Girardi Party on Dec 20, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Well done Mike
"If Gerry played at Notre Dame he'd probably average 25 a game for four years because that's what he gets when he comes here."-JB
by theNYsportsguy on Dec 19, 2011 6:24 PM EST up reply actions
I have the totals
Using ESPN’s stats, and going with 40 minutes per each starter, the bench wins. Here’s why:
KJ/Triche/Scoop/Melo/Rak PPG 77.0 RPG 34.1 APG 12.4 SPG 9.5 BPG 7.1 TOPG 14.2 51.5% FG 65.3% FT and 35.5% 3FG
Dion/CJ/JS/Keita/MCW PPG 76.4 RPG 35.1 APG 10.1 SPG 13.3 BPG 8.6 TOPG 8.9 51.9% FG 66.2% FT and 35.1% 3FG
Scoring is basically a push, but I’ll give it to the first five since MCW and BMK don’t look to score more. Rebounding is a slight edge to the 2nd team since JS/Fair/BMK/MCW all have over 6 RPG40 and Scoop and Brandon are both around 4. First team has a 0.88 A:TO ratio and the second team has 1.14 ratio – turnovers are a big factor for the first team which would hypothetically turn into more points for the first team. Second team also averages 1.5 more BPG40 which should create more offensive opportunities. Lastly, second team averaging almost 4 more SPG40 which again, creates offense. The second team is where we get our defensive sparks and in a game where scoring, rebounding, and shooting percentage is basically even, defense should help the 2nd team win out.
So what does this mean? We’ve got a damn good team.
by Andrew Currier on Dec 20, 2011 6:21 AM EST up reply actions
urgh
I meant “hypothetically turn into more points for the 2nd team.”
by Andrew Currier on Dec 20, 2011 6:23 AM EST up reply actions
I would imagine
this would be a game of turnovers and fast breaks. The only players I would trust going against the zone would be Waiters (who can create his own offense) and Fair (who seems to get into the middle of zone defenses).
Second Team just got odds
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The Team with Mookie
Wins.. (we need a new period symbol, that represents point blank period. I’m thinking the double period.)
Mookie doesn't make either team
He will win the 11th man award tho.
"If Gerry played at Notre Dame he'd probably average 25 a game for four years because that's what he gets when he comes here."-JB
by theNYsportsguy on Dec 19, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mookie wants to put up a 3rd team
consisting of: Scookie, MookJo, Rak Mookmass, James Mookerland, Baye Mookie Keita.
Team Mookapocalypse is favored by 17.5 points…
.
.
.
.
.
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…In his mind
http://www.syracuserugby.com/
by 'CuseRugby on Dec 20, 2011 2:04 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
mcw
don’t think hes a liability if hes passing and play making, and on defense. He was a good shooter, in hs just needs to shake off the nerves
I like team 2
MCW is the big question mark, but CJ would be huge over Rak. Also I think the 2nd team would run more than the first (fab and rak)
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
I would take Team 2, but it would be close.
Team 2 would have trouble with Fab inside I think and KrisJo can probably match Dion’s scoring.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
I went with 1st team
I think they have more consistent scorers in Kris Jo and Scoop, and I think Melo’s offensive set is just ahead of Baye’s But DAMN was it close.
I'm going with the Second Five
Simply because of (call me crazy) Waiters. He’s turning into a “put the team on his shoulders” player. I think the rest of the rosters pretty much balance themselves out in one way or another. So if it comes down to Dion’s performance head-to-head against Scoop or Triche, I’m taking Dion.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
I can't in good conscience take the second team
Dropping Kris Jo for a relatively one dimensional Southerland is dicey. Fab is better on both ends this year. And MCW is not, at this point, a scoring threat at all. At least Rak can get some rebounds
Still, it would be close.
I really hope they scrimmage this way in practice
We need somebody to tell us the results!!!!
~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."
This is what I couldnt help but wonder myself.
But the Melo Center is locked to the public though during practices.
went with team 2
As some have said, i think it would really come down to the play of MCW. His shot selection and decision making have been getting better game by game. But where i think he really makes a difference is that he’s just so good on the defensive end as well as a rebounder from the guard spot. I don’t think its a shock that the team does better defensively when scoop isn’t in the game. And at times this year(albeit, against weaker teams) that the best we have looked on defense has been with MCW and Waiters up top
Team 1
I think Melo is just a shade better than Keita right now.
I figure that Dion/MCW are pretty much equal to Triche and Jardine.
I also thought having Kris and Christmas as the best and worst forward wouild equal the middle two of Southerland and CJ.
Does Hopkins Coach the 2nd team?......
and let them play a smothering m2m defense. If so, team #2 – Scoop and Trishe can’t stay in front of Dion. Let the game begin!
Outstanding question
What an amazing thing that it is really hard to decide. I lean towards Team 1. But that is not a confident lean at all.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
More fun (FG%/FT%/3PT%)
Starting Five – 48.27/66.97/36.28
Second Five – 50.34/68.60/36.9
Southerland, Baye and Dion all shooting over 50%, only Fab and Scoop doing so on the starting five.
This is ridiculous
Starting Five – 76.78 points / 34.05 rebounds / 16.13 assists / 14.13 turnovers / 9.43 steals / 6.78 blocks
Second Five – 76.43 points / 35.15 rebounds / 17.5 assists / 8.77 turnovers / 13.08 steals / 8.56 blocks
wow
"If Gerry played at Notre Dame he'd probably average 25 a game for four years because that's what he gets when he comes here."-JB
by theNYsportsguy on Dec 19, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
Factor in fouls per minute...
..who ends up going to the bench first, or, more important, which team has to deal with the MOOKPOCALYPSE?!
Those with the smallest sample sizes have their influence bumped up the most, so it’s not completely fair.
The steals are interesting. Much has been made of Dion’s steals, but Scoop is not far behind him. And Southerland is not far behind Scoop, though that is probably because Southerland comes in when we press.
I am a huge fan of Southie and have wanted him to blow up since his freshman year, but his numbers are crazy bloated due to his steady diet of cupcakes. He is narrowly behind Dion in points per forty, third in steals, and third in blocks.
Like the last scene in Rocky III

We will just never know who won.
And just like Rocky III, we are all just going to have to come to terms with that on our own.
by Pinker on Dec 19, 2011 9:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
1st Five only because
MCW and Southie seem to be shy at shooting the rock. I think this is more like PTSD for James thanks to tongue-lashings by JB and MCW has heard (and seen) how quick the hook comes after a bad shot.
by tazeray1 on Dec 19, 2011 11:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Anyone else notice that Davidson’s win against Kansas at the Sprint center is basically being considered a road won on ESPN?
by twang84 on Dec 19, 2011 11:50 PM EST via mobile reply actions
30 min drive from KU's campus?
Neutral. Davidson should be embarrassed
http://threeputtbogeys.blogspot.com/2011/10/syracuse-basketball-preview.html
by gimmealoosey on Dec 20, 2011 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
the team with Fair wins...
..but it could go either way. i too have been referring to Fair as Josh Pace (2.0) with half a jumper.
Also, Triche reminds me of Doc Rivers from my days growing up as a Knicks fan. And Kris Jo a very rich man’s Ryan Blackwell.
Really thought Mookie would be gone by now. I give the kid credit for not being a distraction, etc.
more than that even
when we last emptied the bench (GW I guess) and Mookie didn’t get in even with the walk-ons he was the first one to jump up off the bench and celebrate when Tomeizacxicasdvasa hit that 3…
F#&% the Big East
This is starting to remind me
… of the ‘59 football team in that there was a hot debate back then (I’ve read) who was better, the starters or the second team. Back then, you didn’t have an offense and a separate defense, but you had a first and second team and they all played both ways. The seconds probably got a quarter to a third of the playing time… more though if they were playing well. Against UCLA in the season finale, the starters were playing well but the second team was really firing on all cylinders and dominating the Bruins. This led Red Grange, who was doing the color commentary over the radio, to say “Well, if Syracuse’s starters are the number one team in the nation, I’d have to say their second team is number two.”
I went with Team 1
The experienced guard play + the way Fab is playing right now + the KJo factor = win in my book. But Team 2 keeps it within 5 point.
Fly, Eagles, fly...down, down the field!
I am going to take Team 1
There is more developed talent, and more consistent talent on that team. All due respect to JSouth, Baye et al.
Also, whos to say Dion can generate his own offense off of our starting 5? Im sure right now he is that good just ATTEMPTING to guard scoop in practice.
That being said, I dont think it would be much of a spread in point!

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