Bernie Fine Allegations: Jim Boeheim's Future Now The Biggest Question
by Sean Keeley on Nov 27, 2011 11:56 PM EST
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When Syracuse University fired Bernie Fine Sunday evening, they took the first step in the aftermath of the sexual abuse allegations that have rocked the University, basketball program and fanbase to the core.
Step 2 may or may not be deciding what to do with Jim Boeheim. And even if it's not Step 2, there is going to have to be some kind of public statement sooner or later on Boeheim's fate. For better or worse.
I'd say it goes without saying that we still have A LOT to find out about this situation, but anyone who's read the message boards and social networks tonight knows that many folks have already made up their mind one way or another.
SO, let's say once again that we still know very few facts about the allegations, we don't know the whole story by a mile and most of the things we do know are hearsay.
Okay, so, what of Jim Boeheim?
There's a lot of folks calling for Boeheim's head right now and I can understand that. Gregg Doyel came out of the gate swinging, which was surprising since the contrarian argument would be to say Boeheim should keep his job. Anyway, Doyel lays out the reasons behind it, even if he does it in the most condescending way possible, but he makes points.
I'm sure there will be dozens more columns Monday saying the same thing.
I said in my earlier post that I think Boeheim could end up taking the fall not because of what he said last week but simply because he was in charge of Bernie Fine for 30+ years while all of this allegedly happened. We live in a society that demands accountability. When something terrible happens, we want to know who to blame. It's not the best answer to every situation but it is what usually happens. Fine's fate is with the authorities but will public opinion demand more? Probably.
The official TNIAAM opinion? Boeheim's comments weren't a good idea on a lot of different levels but I will always understand where they came from. He was defending a friend of 50 years who he (we assume) honestly did not believe was capable of such crimes. If I'm ever accused of such things, I pray someone stands up for me the way Boeheim did, even if it turns out he was wrong.
Do I think Boeheim should be fired? Honestly, I don't know. Probably? I guess I'm just still holding out hope that it will be proven Jimmy knew nothing and somehow that helps. But I don't know.
Nancy Cantor didn't mention Boeheim by name in her statement, though she alluded to him by saying, "those who felt they knew Bernie best could not imagine what has unfolded."
Doc Gross hasn't commented on Boeheim. Then again, Doc Gross hasn't commented on ANYTHING since the accusations came down. But that's an issue to be discussed at a later date...
Clearly from his own statement, Boeheim has been muzzled from here on out. He didn't write that statement and everything he says, aside from his press conferences, will come from a PR expert or lawyer, even if it carries his name. We've always wondered what it would take for SU to shut Boeheim down. Well, here we are.
I'd bet my life that right now, someone is setting up a sit-down interview for Boeheim and an esteemed TV interviewer in which Jimmy can make his case, apologize for his comments and try to move forward. I don't think it will be someone with a Syracuse background (to remove potential bias) and I highly doubt it will be ESPN (for obvious reasons), so even money is on Matt Lauer (H/T: Zach). Expect that interview to happen by the end of this week.
The only other variable in play right now is The Unknown. A lot of folks are trying to figure out who's lying...Bobby Davis, who says Boeheim saw him in Bernie Fine's hotel room, or Jimmy B, who says he did not. Unfortunately for Boeheim, Davis' story gets more credible by the day. If it turns out that Boeheim did know more than he's let on, or that he knew pretty much ANYTHING else along the way, it will signal the beginning of the end.
A month ago, if you told me I'd be sitting here writing about the potential end of the Jim Boeheim Era, I'd have called you insane. And that includes discussing just simple retirement. I always though James Arthur had another 4-5 years in him.
Right now? I'm trying to figure out how he makes to the end of this one.
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Considering
Most of what went down happened before either got there, I doubt it. I was at SU in 2002-2003 when the initial investigations were done. Shaw and Crouthamel were still Chancellor and AD then. Then, in 2005, they (Cantor especially) did exactly what they should have done; hired a reputable firm to perform an investigation. I see no accountability on the parts of Canor or Gross. It’s not like when they took their jobs they were told, “Oh, BTW, Bernie Fine is a little off, just keep it under wraps”
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Him going wouldn't have anything to do with knowing anything
It looks doubtful he did know anything. He is right when he says he isn’t JoePa.
What his firing would be over would be his reaction to the allegations.
Knowledge has nothing to do with it.
It’s how he handled himself in light of the allegations that is being put under a microscope. Gross and Cantor have not said comparably insensitive things. Cantor, in fact, has done everything in about as perfect a way as she could given the situation.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
My dad and I were talking...
just days before, around the time Coach K became the winningest coach. we discussed if Jimmy B would get to 900 wins and we both agreed that would happen. Now…now…wow. This was a blow when it first hit the news and now I’m waiting for the next shoe to drop :-/
Oh for f#ck sake
Mr. Fine is getting hung because of this tape? A tape in which Mrs. Fine NEVER says she saw abuse going on? Let’s wait to hear what she actually says before people’s heads start getting chopped off. Right now it’s just allegations from people with not a lot of credibility.
Some aspects of this case should be easily proven or dis-proven. Like this third accuser. His father states unequivocally he was not in Pittsburgh, there should be records, if he wasn’t he was lying about that. Has it been checked?
by CNYOrange on Nov 28, 2011 12:12 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
Not one person
suggested that Paterno should be fired because of the abuse itself. Instead, it was always because of Paterno’s failure to respond to the abuse once he had a credible witness. JB does not have that and still does not have that. This is not the PSU situation and even that was not going to lead to Paterno’s downfall.
It is 100% the comments. Paterno showed an unacceptable (morally) and naive understanding of the importance of an appropriate moral response to allegations of this nature. JB showed a similar lack of understanding when he called the accusers liars, etc. That moved him near the Paterno level because it shows that he considered himself (I would not hire or employ someone who could do this and will tell the world that) instead of the possibility, however remote, that this was true. He also announced that nobody tells him what to say—which is the absolute opposite of what he needed to say. He needed to show that Syracuse University was united and committed to the same plan—as announced by Canton.
Even worse, he may have disregarded what Cantor and Gross wanted with his comments. There is a reason why he noted that he was saying things others did not want him to say. The cowboy attitude works when you are right. But you better not be wrong. And with Fine’s firing, I don’t see how he was anything but wrong.
Maybe the University can chalk this up to an emotional response to an issue. Maybe JB can make enough apologies to make it work. I sure hope so. I think we can withstand a little flak on this. But, given that everybody else at Syracuse has handled with with great caution and care, JB’s decision to veer off track for a day or two may ultimately be the best of him.
Dictated, but not read.
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Paterno
made his assistants all shower together after practices as part of some bizarre bonding ritual. That’s creepy all in itself.
Ew
Is that true?
"(BARF)" - Donovan McNabb, during his game winning drive against Virginia Tech in 1998
RESTORE 44!
by kotite4ever on Nov 28, 2011 8:43 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Public figures can overcome a lot of adversity with a heartfelt apology
The only reason Paterno got the ax was because he verifiably and admittedly knew some incredibly sordid details and did little more than send it up the ladder. Assuming Boeheim really didn’t have any inkling, I think he can overcome those giant foot-in-mouth statements with a sincere apology in front of the cameras. Again, assuming the best of Boeheim, I’m sure he’s pretty crushed right now – one of his closest friends has turned out to be a lying pedophile. That’s gotta be hard to take.
by DMF on Nov 28, 2011 12:14 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I still haven't heard...
anyone from ESPN say why this damning tape recording from 2002 is just coming out now. When did ESPN get it? Why didn’t Davis take it to ESPN or the Post-Standard originally? Why didn’t he turn it over to SU in 2005? Why didn’t ESPN run it when the story broke?
Good luck
waiting for that mea culpa.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
Posted this in another thread...(not that helps answer much of anything)
Mark Schwarz got a tough question on ESPN News earlier – something about why this tape is just now coming out to SPD and the University.
He gave some lousy response about how he/ESPN couldn’t report it because there wasn’t corroboration with another victim. But that with Lang now corroborating, they could. My thought is…ONE VICTIM ISN’T ENOUGH!? Are you kidding me?! You had a tape of Bernie Fine’s wife corroborating an untold number of incidences of molestation with one child…how the hell isn’t that enough?!
You too, Post-Standard.
Yeah
Im more concerned about this than Jimmy B’s future. WTF ESPN?
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
ESPN is JoePa here
Not Boeheim. Boeheim is just a side person who made some INCREDIBLY irresponsible comments that may cost him dearly.
I agree
ESPN knew more information, and did not tell a) the SPD or b) SU and kept it close to the chest. Even if they wouldn’t print it, for the sake of the boys involved, they should have turned it over.
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
Support JB. Give people like Doyle hell.
JB committed NO CRIME. Not one that is even alleged. ZERO.
Plus there is zero evidence he knew of a crime. Plus, if he is guilty, well then hell the whole school is guilty.
What crime did Joe Pa commit?
What crime did Bob Knight commit?
What crime did Jim Tressel commit?
Public figures in the entertainment industry within a University are not the bosses of the University. The program is more important than any coach.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jim Tressel broke rules
very clearly and then concealed that fact. Several of Bob Knight’s actions could have been classified as assault and battery. Not analogous to this situation IMO.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:19 AM EST up reply actions
You think there is no rule
regarding the speech/conduct of an employee representing the University?
These guys got fired for the damage that they did to the school’s reputation, notwithstanding all the great things that they did for the school over several years/decades.
Dictated, but not read.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:45 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
'He commited no crime' is a Penn State fanboy pseudo-argument to protect a coach.
‘No crime’ a valid argument if the question is about jail time. No crime? Sure, no jail.
It is not a valid argument against firing someone. Law-abiding citizens are fired every day. The unemployment lines are full of people who have committed no crime.
What ‘crime’ did Ron Zook commit? I don’t think he’s even been accused of jaywalking. So where’s the outrage?
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
Didn't Davis retract
his accusation that Boeheim saw him in Fine’s room?
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:20 AM EST reply actions
Bernies wife said it best
“Bernie has issues, maybe that he’s not aware of, but he has issues. … And you trusted somebody you shouldn’t have trusted … "
While I can excuse Boehiem for his lack of negative imagination regarding Fine I still feel that, as a leader, he must resign. His comments after the allegations surfaced were born of trust that he had built up with the Fines. He ultimately believed in them at the exclusion of any possible victim. If Boeheim wants to keep his job as a leader in my school he needs to show good judgement in those with whom he trusted. I can’t say today that he did and so… he should go.
His wife said as much in the phone call.
“Bernie has issues, maybe that he’s not aware of, but he has issues. … And you trusted somebody you shouldn’t have trusted … "
Bernie's wife was sleeping with the dude.
(and shame on that dude for that score)
by NoXCUSE99 on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You’re joking, right?
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions
No, Fine's wife was definitely sleeping with Davis.
It was on the whole ESPN clip and tape recording, that Davis admitted to this.
JB will coach till he is '90 because of this. Sucks to be Mike Hopkins.
A sports writer says he as to go? Are you kidding me? The guy will never leave. They will carry him out.
"Probably"?
C’mon Sean. Joe Pa went bye-bye after “I wish I’d done more”. Separate these out. If all it takes is working with someone who’s insane to end a career… as their boss… ?
The public may call for more but you have a voice here. Like it or not, you’re part media since you disseminate information. You have sheep. Don’t back away from this to say “well, JB might go down, and I would get why, ya know, right or wrong.”
Use your voice. We don’t know everything yet, but we do know that JB as it stands has done nothing worthy of ending his career. Underline that fact as you have the underlined the previous doubt in BF’s allegations.
You’ve been on the right side of fairness, justice, and the ‘american way’ all along and I salute you. Don’t back away from that just because of the egregiousness of one man’s crimes.
Funny, I was thinking the opposite
When I read Sean’s post, I thought to myself that Sean has handled this story, from the beginning, in a very measured and sensible manner. He’s addressed the inconsistencies in the accusations without calling the accusers ‘liars’ or worse. He’s avoided making assumptions about the case and has treated it all very seriously, as he should.
Sports talk hosts and columnists these days seem to never leave any grey areas when addressing current issues. Everyone MUST pick a side. You either believe (A) or (B); otherwise, you’ve got no ‘guts.’ This “all or nothing, PICK A SIDE” mentality might make for lively, ratings/page-view-grabbing ‘discussions,’ but I find it to be a simplistic, almost infantile way of viewing the world and forming opinions. (This ‘pick a side’ mentality seems to have infected our media and public discourse in the political realm as well, in my opinion, but that’s another discussion for another blog).
When Sean gives an honest opinion of “I don’t know,” it’s refreshing and noteworthy. Being a blogger free of the editorial control that other journalists have to deal with, he could easily come out swinging and offering strong, controversial opinions, but he’s chosen a more reasonable approach and I, for one, appreciate that fact.
by ForthCountry on Nov 28, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I completely agree with you but....
I’m not saying pick a side. I am not calling for histrionics, believe me, I detest the way we as a society give weight to emotions and over-simplification over actual facts. I’m responding to this effort in the post:
“Do I think Boeheim should be fired? Honestly, I don’t know. Probably?”
That IS offering an opinion. Question mark or not. That IS picking a side. Moreover, I would say that that is chickening out to the angry mob calling for heads.
On a Syracuse blog, catering to SU fans, there is ample room to pick a side, and I think Sean has walked the line VERY VERY well. At the time of my previous post, I was upset as his momentary lack of stance—- not a stance for A or B, but lack of stance for justice— for the wait and see he’s been such a proponent of to date. I think, Sean, that you gave in a little. I understand why, this must be exhausting for you, I only meant to say: don’t throw up your hands just yet. Keep covering it as you have. Don’t say some outcome should “probably” happen.
This is ridiculous.
If this happened in any other profession that did not involve a high profile figure like Boeheim, AND did not come on the heels of the Penn State scandal, he would absolutely, unequivocally keep his job. He deserves better than to be made a sacrificial lamb for a moral point.
Yes
But in any other profession, nobody would be arrogant enough to call alleged victims liars in the media. Try it at work sometime and see how well it goes over. Call a press conference and call someone (anyone?) a liar. Whatever your job, I suspect that the negative media attention will cause your employer to rethink your value.
Such is the benefit of being self-employed, I suppose. You don’t have to live up to anyone’s moral standards. Although I suppose your clients and customers could choose to take their business elsewhere.
Dictated, but not read.
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A person in another line of work would not 'absolutely, unequivocally' keep a job if he gaffed that badly in public.
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:11 AM EST up reply actions
Should Rony Seikaly be punished?
Should he no longer be allowed to DJ and tag insanely hot chicks?
What is the proper punishment for Fine’s friends? The people who knew, or thought they knew, him?
by NoXCUSE99 on Nov 28, 2011 12:25 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Which ones called the accusers liars?
Give us a list with links.
Dictated, but not read.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Isn't that implied
by unequivocably stating they support Fine and don’t believe the accusations? Don’t play at semantics man, its the exact same thing.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
No it isn't
It’s offering support to the accused.
Life is 100% semantics. If you speak in the media, you have to choose your words carefully.
JB knows this as much as anyone.
Dictated, but not read.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
saying that you don’t believe the accusations is the exact same thing as saying the person casting those accusations is lying.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:31 AM EST up reply actions
saying that you don’t believe the accusations is the exact same thing as saying the person casting those accusations is lying
No, it is not. There are many reasons a report may not be true. Lying is one possibility. There are others.
Providing a character witness for an accused person, if that’s what one chooses to do, is not ‘the exact same thing’ as attacking someone else’s character.
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:15 AM EST up reply actions
I have had a best friend since first grade ....
If he was charged with a crime, and told me he was innocent, and I did not see any proof that he was not, I would support him 100% and I’d go to the mat.
Kudos to Jim for that. Says a LOT about Jim.
That's your choice
But you cannot complain if the ramifications for making that statement are losing your job because your employer things a different tactic should have been taken.
Dictated, but not read.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes you can
the employer can do whatever they want, but that doesn’t make it right. You can complain all you want if you and many others feel it’s unjustified.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:38 AM EST up reply actions
True
You can complain. But at the end of the day, the employer gets to make the decision.
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And of people think it was wrong
they can let the employer know that in no uncertain terms, either verbally or economically, bot of which I would consider doing.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:41 AM EST up reply actions
Congrats
I follow the program, not the coach. Whatever the University decides is in the University’s best interests, I will support.
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That's just as bogus
the Institution is bigger than one person when it’s acting in the right, like firing Paterno. Firing a good and honorable man because it’s a better PR move does not show any positive moral character in the slightest. We’re not Soviets marching in lockstep to what the Chancellor tells is is for our best interests. If we think it’s wrong, I don’t have blind faith that they know precisely what is in the school’s best interests. They could be just as concerned with saving their own asses.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions
To each his own
I grew up following Syracuse. Players graduated, others replaced them. Football coaches came, football coaches went.
JB’s statements may show that, while his coaching acumen is at its high point, his ability to deal with the media in an appropriate manner is not. If the powers that be find that too much to take, so be it. They are the ones that have to answer if he says other stupid things.
Life is complicated.
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I think that
“Not ten f*cking games.” is adequate evidence that Jim B’s media savvy is pretty low. Either that, or extremely, genius level high.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
What?
I started following SU basketball right around JB’s first season. My dad and I saved newspaper printouts of boxscores from the Final Four season. I am not sure if I remember those games or remember the boxscores. But I remember Bouie and Louie. My all-time favorite thing was JB going crazy after the SU-Georgetown game—throwing the chair, etc.
I seriously cried after some of the SU losses. My all-time favorite player was Raf Addison. I went to Boeheim’s basketball camp, even though I suck at the game. I skipped school (with permission though) to watch Indiana lose to Cleveland State, and then waited around for Syracuse to beat Brown in the Dome. I had to and did defend Boeheim in the 1980’s. The final four in 1987 helped that a bit. I continued to do so forever.
People called and emailed me after the 2003 game because of my long-time support of the program, which included Boeheim. I almost got in a fight with people cheering for Vermont at a sports bar here in Michigan that night. Not sure what I expected.
So, yeah, I love Boeheim as much as I love the program. Sorry.
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SU 97
What about it?
If your parents get divorced, do you stop loving either one of them?
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And
that does not necessarily mean that you don’t think that a divorce is appropriate either.
The odd thing is that I am not saying he SHOULD be fired.
Just pointing out that there is a real basis for him TO BE fired.
But I guess objectivity is not part of the equation around here anymore.
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Then fire Cantor and Gross too, right?
They were there for the investigation previously. They didn’t fire Fine until now.
Why
They didn’t say stupid things to the media?
Why is this so hard to grasp? JB is OK today if he just keeps his mouth shut. This is 100% about words.
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JB's job isn't
He didn’t know about the abuse. He could not have stopped it.
If his job is in jeopardy, it is because of what he said.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And I still get my check every two weeks.
What a country. I can be a dumazz that supports my friend and my career is not effected.
No need for corroboration. We got that part.
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:20 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Do you say stupid shit about your coworkers all the time on national television while representing your company?
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
Those who go to the mat can be pinned.
That’s the risk you take.
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:18 AM EST up reply actions
er... life is not 100% semantics for most people
and again; if we live in a society where the press and the mob can get you fired for speaking your mind (i think it was one paragraph worth that is now possibly “insensitive”) what is the meaning of free speech. JB did NOT ruin anyones life, he did NOT change the course of events, he has NOT interferred in any investigations of events. Jim Boeheim has helped Syracuse University, and many people for many many years. Lets NOT judge his life’s work based on SEMANTICS… It would be a blot on the UNIVERSITY if he were fired for a couple of insensitive comments. I have read many, many; more insensitive things on this blog over the course of the past month.
JB took a risk and knew it.
We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint.
- Robert Falcon Scott
(found in his diary after he and his party froze to death in Antarctica)
Abiaka Windclan
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by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
wow, arent you educated, and always politically correct...
obscure quotes…lol. I understand that it a stretch, but imagine if every thing you said was recorded and analyzed endlessly after the fact…. Dont think youd survive. Its MY belief that firing Jim Boeheim would hurt the University and Society at large much more than his two sentences of insensitivity ever could have hurt anyone. Termination would be the end of manyof the great things that are being accomplished by JB; for SU, the players, and all the charitable beneficiaries. SIXTY YEARS of POSITIVE PUBLIC SERVICE COUNTS.
by supgs on Nov 28, 2011 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s a bad idea to start going on about free speech when it clearly doesn’t apply. Free speech gives you the right to speak without being persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. It doesn’t give you the right to speak with absolutely no repercussions at all anywhere from anyone. SU is not the government and they have every right to decided that Jim Boeheim’s comments to the media make him an unacceptable liability to the University and the Universities public image.
'Cuse 2010, Michigan 2012
Lets start here
""Completely ridiculous," said Seikaly, who ranks second in career rebounds for Syracuse with 1,094, fourth in blocked shots with 319 and fourth in games started with 133. “Do people want a quick buck or something?”
If that nose doesn't stop him
Nothign can
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions
Well
If he is wrong, then he may see some backlash. Not sure what he is doing these days. If it is just the DJ thing, not sure anyone is going to care. He does not work for a University that prides itself on doing the right thing.
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I am sure he is OK
Not like he is working for ACME DJing. I am sure he is self-employed. And nobody is going to care.
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What would you say if someone accused your friend?
And, at the time, there was no more reputable information than there had been 6 years prior when the accusation was investigated? Boeheim expressed his opinion based on the knowledge he had at the time. He didn’t do it in the proper way, but he was just expressing an opinion. Just because he was wrong, or so it appears since we still don’t know anything for sure, doesn’t mean he needs to be tarred and feathered in a public square
I am not saying he should be fired.
I am saying that the logic of firing him is out there and very real. And not at all an anti-JB thing. This is very much about PR and media relations.
I would say whatever my bosses and lawyers said was OK to say. And I guarantee that it would not be to call the accusers liars. I am a lawyer—no self-respecting lawyer would advise calling the accusers liars. It is beyond comprehension. Far too dangerous. Why? Because you never 100% know whether these things are true or not. You just don’t. Thinking someone is lying and saying it are two very different things.
But if you want hypotheticals… assume that Davis is telling the truth and he is your friend… how do you feel about JB calling him a liar? Suppose you have a child that has been molested in the past and had to go through heck just to get an investigation started. How do you feel about JB calling another accuser a liar?
Dictated, but not read.
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by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why does no one remember
the serious accusations Davis made about Boeheim, that he later changed? I’m pretty sure that played a part in Jimmy’s choice of words.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
I think it’s pretty clear that Davis was molested innumerable times. But he may have tried to spice his story up a bit with that Boeheim mention. Then again, after years of being ignored by ESPN, SPD, P-S, and SU…I can’t really blame him for trying to get people’s attention. But you’re right, after being called a liar his response was, in essence, ‘Of course he [Boeheim] wouldn’t know – how could he know what went on behind closed doors?!’ Well…right.
Exactly
Given the whole picture, Davis’ screw-up there is permissible.
It should then follow that Boeheim’s screw-up at that press conference is also permissible, given what he knew at the time.
Boeheim had no idea this was going on, he made a mistake that came back to bite him in the ass. It happens. Let him keep his job and move on.
I wouldn't exactly say it's "pretty clear"
until we hear from Mrs. Fine herself and actually get word of some material evidence. if the allegations are true, this is obviously a terrible situation; however, and regardless of how conspiratorial this may sound, there’s no way to know whether or not such a recording was actually made without Mrs. Fine’s knowledge, or whether it may or may not have been part of some plan to get Bernie out of the picture. it sounds goofy because it is, but given the rest of the information we have, such a scenario (or any other equally absurd set of events) is equally likely. the only person who has changed his story here is, in fact, Davis, who implicated JB in his original statements and is now dumping them for some reason. these tapes may be a smoking gun, but literally none of these stories add up yet and i’m pretty sure that in the same situation, most of the people participating in this conversation would have taken the exact same course of action as JB. God forbid he is directly implicated in some way, but if he isn’t, BOEHEIM FOREVER.
by OrangeFactor on Nov 28, 2011 1:24 AM EST up reply actions
Nobody is forgetting that
But do you really think that the powers that be recommended that JB address that head on? At most, they might have suggested that he limit his statements to denying that specific accusation. Nobody would have greenlighted him calling the accusers liars.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If it turns out that the university’s investigation back in ’05 was thorough and without bias then Jimmy should be fine living under that umbrella
A.K.A. adirondackangelfan
The 'Cuse is in the House? Shut it Down!! Oooo, That's hot!!
by adirondackorangefan on Nov 28, 2011 12:27 AM EST reply actions
Okay, if Boeheim was accused by Davis
of witnessing him in Fine’s room when that never happened, than JB is perfectly within his rights to call him a liar based on that serious aspersion, and to at that time look at the rest of the accusations as being just as false. Especially when going up agains the word of his best friend.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:30 AM EST reply actions
I'm with you
if he had stopped there. If he never saw Davis in Fine’s room, he can say that was a lie. And by extension hat Davis is a liar. He shouldn’t have said they were looking for money though. That may be the final straw.
F#&% the Big East
Shame it's come to this
Hopefully Boeheim makes it through this, if only because it’s impossible to know every conceivable detail about somebody, even if you work with them every day for 30+ years. Firing him for something that he might legitimately never had a clue about is a knee-jerk move to me. If that damning piece of evidence does ever come out, then the axe can fall. But as of right now JB is only guilty of putting all of his trust in a man that likely betrayed his own.
The whole “well, it was on his watch” argument is dumb to me. There needs to be a limit to what type of information or access a person in power has. How is JB responsible for anything that goes on at Fine’s home?
hoopspeak.com/college
searchingforbillyedelin.com
Yeah, I tend to agree with this
Sounds like Fine has fooled a hell of a lot of people over the years.
Boeheim’s only error (that we know about) are some really stupid statements. It seems like he could probably apologize his way out of that.
Have to agree
As is stands now, with Boeheim apparently knowing nothing, then firing him is strictly a PR move. Hoepfully Cantor and the DOC are smarter than that.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
Boeheim / ESPN
JB will be safe UNLESS the skells at ESPN have more stuff that they planning to reveal.
Their first round was the OTL story and the interviews with Davis and Lang, Round 2 has been Bernie being put on leave. #3 is the tape of Laurie and Davis, #4 is victim 3 telling his tale. In all of this no one is asking to search JB’s house. If ESPN has more info, more things specifically about JB that involves Bernie, JB could be screwed, I for one want Boeheim cooperating fully to help get this over with. I’ve had to endure years of defending him to everyone who told me he’s a lousy coach. Now it’ll be that his main name was a child molester. My hope is JB escapes scruitny and is able to get this behind him and the program. I’m a fan almost 35 years ans losing Boeheim would set it back quite a bit.
The whole thing is just so shitty. All the way around.
Fortunately
The police can’t search Jim B’s house just beacuse ESPN says so. This might be the most asinine thing I’ve read about this whole debacle. Fine’s house was subject to search because the judge felt that the corroboration if a potential 3rd vitcim justified a warrant. But nowhere, ever, has Boeheim been accused of doing anything more than making some ill-advised comments regarding the accuers. In fact, all of the alleged victims have gone out of their way to say that Jim B knew nothing. Why would you even think that Boeheim is under suspicion of anything?
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I predicted 5-7 at the start of the year.
We lost a LOT of talent from non Marrone classes after last season. Its going to take a while.
I think next year will be worse. We lose Bailey and I know people love him, but he isn’t a stud, but his replacements are worse. Plus the WR spot still seems it will be bad next year.
I think he is the right coach but I think he is going to need 5 to 6 years.
I find that a random dude who ripped off the name of the SU student section for his blog lacks credibility to start with.
'Cuse 2010, Michigan 2012
Nah
We got a lot of national notoriety during the 2010 GTown game at the Dome, they launched their blog a few months later and jacked the name.
Slow the roll
Boeheim reacted like I, and hopefully most of us, would react to an accusation against a longtime friend, with utter and unfailing ferocity. The fact that this friend (potentially) turned out to be a monster is not Boeheim’s fault at all. Most of the criticism I am hearing relates to his discouragement of potential victims coming forward. I have to state a potentially relevant, if unpleasant fact,: these ramifications were not and really should not have been his concern when he made said statement in support of Fine. Jim is acting like a solid & true lifelong friend in this situation. It was clear (to me at least) that his intent was to support Fine, not to shutter other potential victims from coming forth; the man believed what he said when he called the accusers liars. This should be a commendation in an otherwise grotesque situation and serve (perhaps abstractly) as further legitimization of what Jim Boeheim stands for. Once the investigation is concluded and the dust settles, I’m sure he will reevaluate his comments, but as it stands he called it as he saw it. If he was wrong, and its looking more likely that this was the case, I don’t see how sticking up for a friend means you lose your position as head coach. Until someone shows me willful negligence, or at least willful neglect (as in Paterno’s case) I am in Boeheim’s corner all the way.
by goonboggler on Nov 28, 2011 12:51 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
Bravo
hit the nail on the head.
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 12:54 AM EST up reply actions
OK
Better hope that Cantor/Gross agree. I suspect that they have a much more legitimate concern about how their University is portrayed—a concern that outweighs JB’s interest in supporting a friend.
Most employers would feel the same.
JB is not doomed. But he has created himself a legitimate problem.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If JB goes they go. They knew everything he knew. Plus they have more responsibility.
They are higher up the chain.
One falls, they all have to fall. They were there to oversee the first investigation.
For the 3rd time
This is not about what anyone knew, it is about what JB said.
If JB was not at the top of the chain, he should have kept his mouth shut.
You cannot have it both ways as a public figure.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 1:02 AM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Logic fail.
JB has the right to say anything he wants. He just doesn’t have a right to say it as a Syracuse employee. He can say it from the unemployment line.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>---------------------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:37 AM EST up reply actions
Why do people fail time after time to understand what free speech entails?
You can say whatever you want without being
arrested. But that doesn’t mean you can say whatever you want without other consequences, such as getting fired. Getting fired for saying things that make your employer look bad is not an infringement of your free speech.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
by NOLACuse on Nov 28, 2011 9:58 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I usually find myself agreeing with most everything ezcuse says
But not this time. Did jimmy spout off when he should not have? Yes. In no way should he lose his job over it. He was emotional. After the first statement I think he tried to clarify the liar thing (seeing him in hotel room) and he never mentioned the money thing again. it was his lifelong friend.
I think Daryl has enough notes to sit down in the yearly review and give him the old WTF routine. Whether it sinks in with jimmy in another story altogether.
I don’t think it’s enough to lose his job over no matter how you look at it. Tuesday press conference after game should be very interesting.
Nobody seems to be paying attention to what ezcuse is saying.
He is not saying JB should be fired, he is saying that he can easily see it happening and why it would. Should doesn’t play a part in what ezcuse is talking about.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
by NOLACuse on Nov 28, 2011 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here is how JB should play this
“The accuser said I saw him with Bernie. I did not. He later retracted that statement thus making the statement including me in this mess a lie. Based on that, the fact that he accused me of being some sort of co-conspirator and was incorrect, I believed that my friend – who had never lied to me in 35 years – was innocent. I was obviously very heated as any other man would be if they were accused of knowingly enabling child molestation.”
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
we really dont need you to tell us 3 times, we heard you.
You are not part of the story, please sit down for awhile.
No doubt the knee-jerk PR response will be negative
but which is the right course of action here? To bow before that wave and throw Boeheim under the bus for his poor choice of words without any proof of any actual wrong-doing? Or to stick by the man who has made a part of your school the national brand that it is, given that he makes a heartfelt apology (I will grant that it has to be much more than his first statement).
Victor Cruz is the 2011 Ahmad Bradshaw. He giveth, and he taketh away.
by bigbluethruandthru on Nov 28, 2011 1:04 AM EST up reply actions
Or option 3...
figure that Cantor/Gross are in a better position to know just how off the charts JB was. If they told him not to say anything… but then he did AND said stupid things… they would have a legitimate reason to fire him: saying stupid things, when told to keep quiet by your bosses. If they told JB that he could address this issue, then maybe they will feel partly to blame for letting him talk at an emotional point and cut him some slack.
What is clear is that if JB had been quiet, this issue would not even be present. Which is why the best course of action is to listen to attorneys and PR people.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
by ezcuse on Nov 28, 2011 1:08 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You don't have to take a side.
Just side with the truth. Side with finding it out. Side with protecting the innocent. Side with justice.
Let the employment questions settle themselves as they may.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>---------------------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:40 AM EST up reply actions
The storm in public perception will fade
but the enduring story will be how SU handled this in comparison to PSU. So far we have handled it a thousand times more professionally and appropriately. SU has repeatedly offered support for alleged victims, has made decisions clearly and decisively and has offered evidence that they took the previous allegations extremely seriously. We must resist being swept up in emotion on this.
PSU = SU and Paterno = Boeheim is not the correct algebra. I am confident Jim Boeheim will, regardless of his staus as current coach or previous coach of SU, tackle head on the issues that become evident as things evolve. But in context his approach was meaningful and heartfelt. Greg Doyel arguing for his eviction or Seth Davis arguing for his stay of execution must matter little to the over arching search for truth in this monstrous nightmare. Let the facts speak for themselves, and so far, the SU admin has been doing a pretty good job of keeping lockstep with actual facts, rather than public opinion.
by goonboggler on Nov 28, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The university leadership has handled this well.
I’m not a Syracuse fan, but based on the news so far it looks like it should. Prompt action. Investigations. Public statements that hit all the right notes. It sets an excellent example for Penn State van-rollers, if they’re teachable.
Boeheim had a very human moment and made a very human mistake. It’s probably forgiveable if he climbs down effectively. Whether it is forgiven, and whether forgiveness is enough to keep him in his present job, remains to be seen.
Law enforcement? DA? ESPN? We’ll see what happens there, too, I guess.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>---------------------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:48 AM EST up reply actions
Gregg Doyel's article
was literally one of the most condescending things I have ever read. I kept waiting for him to drop some bombshell of morality…it never really came. Or maybe an analogy that would make me gasp. Or perhaps a scenario. I mean, it’s a fair opinion for him to have…but it’s simply not the only valid opinion.
Bingo
Pretty weak article.
But also about what we are used to.
Vitale supported JB on Twitter, fyi.
Dictated, but not read.
http://atlanticcoastconfidential.wordpress.com/
I stopped reading Doyel
a long time ago. The guy represents everything that is wrong with the internet. He is just a message board troll with a salary. He is only successful at picking fights. I try to ignore people like that.
On the other hand, I have been very impressed with how Sean has handled this very emotional issue.
My 2 cents, again
The difference is that JB does not have the luxury of saying what’s on his mind….
As the head coach of a top ranked BB program, like it or not, Boeheim is the face of the University, and, as such, he has a DUTY to be more diplomatic in his remarks. We all know that his rather self-righteous, tell-it-like-it-is attitude has produced some rather startling remarks in the past. We’ve all laughed and said "that’s Jimmy being Jimmy" … but, ya’ know, there is a price to pay for that kind of arrogance. I’m sure when Jimmy made his first comments in support of his friend, Bernie, he gave hardly a thought to the seriousness of the accusations and the damage his statement could have on the victims, past, present and future. No, he just let loose with both barrels because he’s never exercised any constraint in the past and, by Jesus, why should he start now?! Look, anyone who has had to deal with the public (or has a wife) knows you need to stop and think about the consequences of everything you say… Jimmy has always felt he was above that,,, now, he gets the payoff for being that way. I think he will get fired… The University needs to save face and cut their loses… they need to distance themselves from this whole mess. And, if Cantor gets axed, guess what’s going to happen ?? They will hire a complete asshole who will be sure to put academics WAY above sports to prove that the University is doing the "right thing"… any way you look at it, you may be witnessing the end of SU as any kind of a relevant sports school…
by OrangeNutz on Nov 28, 2011 1:19 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
meh
I disagree. This isnt really about the moral sides of things. College coaches are not moralists (see examples: Jim Calhoun/Rick Pitino et al.) and should never be the beacon of austerity for a school. Lets not hold double standards with what we expect. Coaches are hired to win, not to be profound philosophers on morality, legality, criminality and good graces. Winners back their friends and back their teams with passion, which unfortunately does not translate well to the public relations backstop of damage control. There is enough simple human goodness in his actions to prevent a firing, as long as he acts appropriately moving forward.
I think he can recover.
The responses today show JB and university officials establishing two things: the attack on Fine’s accusers was over the line, and JB works for Syracuse and answers to bosses.
Those are exactly the things that need to be established. At any time, but especially if JB is going to dig himself out of the hole he’s made.
We’ll see how it plays.
Abiaka Windclan
>>>---------------------------------->
by Abiaka Windclan on Nov 28, 2011 8:53 AM EST up reply actions
Let's see what the facts are
Until we know exactly what transpired (or have a good idea of what transpired) firing Boeheim is the wrong move. We have no idea of what he knew or didn’t know, and until we do it is all speculation. To fire him based on the fact he defended his friend of 50 years is indefensible. He has been accused of no crime, and to give in to the fly by night media would be a disgrace. They add nothing to the story, and drawing parallels to Penn State is wrong on every level. If everyone shuts there mouths for a few days public interest will decline and the facts will eventually come out one way or another. Boeheim has earned due to his contributions both to the university and the Syracuse community time for the facts to come play themselves out. It would be an UTTER DISGRACE to fire him until there is clear evidence he knew about the abuse and did nothing to stop it.
Davis did lie
he said JB saw him in BF’s room then retracted the statement.JB called it right at the time. No way he loses his job.
All i want to know is one thing
Why does a 2nd victim have to come forward for the tape to be released. Is it that impossible that one kid went through this? Mark Schwartz sounded so dumb in that interview saying they held it because no one else came forward. If this is how the law or media process works where you HAVE to have more then one person come forward even though you have pretty solid evidence then that is pretty messed up
Yep - the stupidity in that statement from Schwarz is absolutely astonishing.
As if one kid getting molested and a tape of the molester’s wife corroborating the story isn’t enough. Was that really the best reason Schwarz could come up with?
Law dawgs back me up or correct me
For ESPN to release that tape, Laurie Fine would have had to admit that all of it was true and accurate, and when they called her in 2003 she said it was doctored but some parts were accurate. The fact checker would have had to have been told it was 100% accurate for ESPN or the P-S to even consider releasing or using it I believe.
It was finally handed over to police in the last couple of days, and then became public record in evidence, which allowed for its release?
ESPN
released the roger clemens tape without anyone validating it.
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
No, not at all.
I said it in another post below, sorry i didn’t read the whole thread. first.
Maybe the process you laid out is the proper, ethical way to do it from a journalistic standpoint, but legally speaking its almost impossible for a news source to get sued for releasing information.
So if Fine sues for defamation, there is a different set of rules for public figures and private individuals. If fine is considered a public figure, there’s no way he wins a defamation case. If he’s a private individual, he has to prove, that ESPN acted
in a grossly irresponsible manner without due consideration for the standards of information gathering and dissemination ordinarily followed by responsible parties." Chapadeau v. Utica Observer-Dispatch, 38 N.Y.S.2d 196, 199 (N.Y. 1975).
So even if releasing the tape wasn’t in the standards ordinarily followed, so long as they thought about it, it gets them off the hook. Their voice analyst is essentially an immunity to liability here imo.
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
So let me get this straight
The Post Standard and ESPN had knowledge of this taped phone conversation 6+ years ago alleging abuse and never went to the authorities with it. How is that any different that what Joe Pa did or didn’t do?
by kd bart on Nov 28, 2011 7:12 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
As of right now there is a big difference
The first accuser is saying Jimmy B didn’t know. He says in the tape that only his wife can help him out. I think that helps out a lot in Jimmy’s defense. If you want to argue the lack of institutional control, you have to prove the person really knew and didn’t do anything. This proof just didn’t exist.
You don’t fire someone for a misstatement about their friend. Even for calling the accuser a liar. You apologize for that, and if they sue, deal with it there.
I just wish ESPN published this tape from the beginning. Why on earth did they hold it back. It would stopped a lot of the regrettable statements from occurring.
by CapitalOrange on Nov 28, 2011 7:55 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
I Just Realized
Herman Cain who is running for president called Sexual Harassment victims Liars, It’s not the same as molestation, but it is a fairly significant figure calling potential victims of abuse Liars, yet he is still running for president. In that case as well their were finished investigations with payouts.
Apples and Oranges (so to speak)
Herman Cain wasn’t anyone’s employee at the time he made his comments. The people who will or won’t hold him accountable are the voters.
Jim Boeheim is an employee of Syracuse University. It is their right and responsibility to decide his fate accordingly (unless he preempts them).
I think a not insignificant difference...
and I’m sure people have made this point before, and I’m not using this to defend what Boeheim said, but…
From his point of view, this was settled in 2005 when the university did it’s review, and it looked like to him he was dredging it up again in the shadow of PSU and using what happened there to put pressure on SU to do…something. Pay to keep him quiet, whatever.
I think this would be different if this was a new allegation and Boeheim had said what he said. But he said it in the context of it already having been investigated and cleared by the university 6 years ago. Could he have made his point more artfully? Sure. But it’s not just the “defending a friend of 50 years,” it’s also “we’ve already been through this before and they didn’t find anything.”
Certainly the third accuser and, I think more importantly, the tape changed everything in that regard.
Jets, Bills, Syracuse, Tennessee, Florida State, Braves, Cubs, Red Sox
by JoshuaJets on Nov 28, 2011 9:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Babys Got the Bends.......................
I turned on my satellite radio this morning to play music and try to escape from this news. First song that came up on one of the channels was Marcy Playground Sex and Candy, ughhh, really? f-ing really? Switch to another channel, Nirvana doing Lake of Fire, seems the whole town is drowning in it. Finally change the channel again and get Radiohead’s The Bends…..I couldn’t complain after that. Seems like the kind of depressing day to get em.
Btw Sean, I know you live in Seattle but with today’s weather, Syracuse is looking more like Seattlecuse….Black Hole Sun won’t you come.
Sorry guys if I’ve changed the subject with this post, I just need an escape is all, just for 5 minutes
Since the early 1990's I have not been able to get Mike Hopkins' bloody face out of my brain. I don't remember what game it was but I'll never forget that as my first memory of SU basketball. Mike Hopkins, bloody face, bloody nose, all for the love of Syracuse.
This whole story is just getting to be a little too much for me to handle
Ive been trying to keep off the boards as Im just very upset and confused by all of it. Not sure I will comment much until this reaches some sort of closure, just because Im prone to tangents and talking out my ass due to my bias for the team.
Stay up Cuse.
Same here, man.
I’ve been refreshing these posts non-stop for days, yet nary a comment.
Good to know I’m not the only one.
The 'Cuse is in tha house, oh my God oh my God.
Yeah, I haven’t read many comments on this story for most of the week. It makes me tired.
'Cuse 2010, Michigan 2012
I haven't been saying a whole lot about it either
But I’ve been reading comments pretty regularly
Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a Q-tip
Colin Cowherd
Just said on the tape “ESPN had it, Syracuse University had it, The local Post Standard had it… but would not run it because we would get sued”
1) SU said they never had the tape. 2) why was it not turned over to the PD?
He then went on to say that Jim has “conditional loyalty” and how that is different that blind loyalty and thinks he will be fine because his perspective changed with the new information.
The ESPN Radio Sports Center report made it sound like the tape was just provided to ESPN. No mention of it having come to them in 2003.
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
they are going to obfuscate
as much as possible. They are trying to draw focus away from themselves, as it looks incredibly hypocritical to sit on this information while they burned JoePa at the stake for essentially the same behavior. We can only hope other news outlets continue to call them out on it.
Thats an incredibly misinformed opinion
Its just false. There is virtually no way ESPN would have any exposure in running the story, even if it was just Davis, saying his uncorroborated allegations. The only way is if they knew it was false and they aired it maliciously, and there was proof of same.
Either ESPN has Barry Zuckerkorn as general counsel, or Cowherd is being a douche bag.
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus, a husband and wife can't be arrested for the same crime.
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Cowherd a D-bag
Should never be in question.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Nov 28, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
From what I have heard
from podcasts by other ESPN talking heads (notably Ryen Russillo from ESPN’s NBA Today podcast), he takes pride in being a trouble-maker who doesn’t even watch the games that he comments on. He’s all about ‘the story’ even if he has to make it up. When he was called out for not watching a game that he was commenting on, he said something like, “So what? I never do.” I’m sure he hasn’t been following this situation closely either, so it’s no surprise that he’s factually off.
by DMF on Nov 28, 2011 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Definitely False
Schwarz said on CNN yesterday that Outside the Lines made the tape. Further, they got secret recordings of Laurie Fine to confirm the voice analysis. When asked why they didn’t turn over the tapes, he said (paraphrase, but close to an exact quote) it is not our job to turn evidence over to the police. The University says they never had the tape and I believe them based on the Schwarz statement. Don’t know about the P-S, but the key point is the POLICE didn’t have the tape. Spin that any way you want, but ESPN spent days bringing people on air to demand Paterno be fired for not reporting what he saw. ESPN did the same exact thing.
by orangetundra on Nov 28, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
Thats my POV
and they have the balls to go on air and discuss if Jimmy B should be fired. The only ones who knew about this and did nothing were a) his wife and b) ESPN.
May Doug Marrone bless you and keep you.
Ultimately, JB will be forced to leave
Discliamer: I’m a Syracuse grad and huge fan of the Basketball Team.
I don’t think with the evidence that is currently out the JB should be fired. Although I understand why JB siad “He’s Lying” and “he’s out for money”, I do think these comments will eventually result is some sort of suspension for JB. But unfortunately I really believe JB will ultimately be forced to resign.
JB knew that there were accusations of possible abuse by Fine in 2005. We know that. They question that will eventually arise is what did JB do after he got wind of these allegations. Did he restrcit Fine’s involvement with kids? Did he blindly believe that Fine was innocent and do nothing? His statements on Nov. 18th would suggest he did nothing and blindly supported Fine.
If JB did nothing to restrcit Fine’s involvement with kids, public opinion will say he should have done something and he will be forced to resign. If JB did do something to restrcit Fine’s involvement with kids then public opinion will say that inside JB suspected that Fine was guilty and yet JB continued to have him on the bench.
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
I don’t think he should be fired or forced to resign (with the current evidience) but I don’t have high hopes he’ll ever get on the right side of public opinion.
I don’t think your analysis is realistic. Boeheim knew that Fine was under investigation, yes. But the university actually INVESTIGATED IT and CLEARED HIM. It seems now that they came to the wrong conclusion, but there’s no way that JB should take the heat for this because he knew that fine was accused. The police knew that Fine was accused. The University knew that Fine was accused. The investigation found no evidence. There’s no way he can be forced to resign for not getting rid of Fine in that case.
Not that I think he necessarily won’t be forced to resign. But it won’t be because of this.
'Cuse 2010, Michigan 2012
I didn't say he should have gotten rid of fine in 2002, 2003 or 2005
Youre missing my point.I know the University invesigated Bernie and did not find sufficent evidence to dismiss him (btw, this does not exactly mean “CLEARED”). My point is about public opinion. JB has work to do and hurdles to overcome (like my point in my post) if he is going to save his job. I think what JB did or didnot do in 2005 in terms of how did he restrict Fine’s involvement with kids from 2005 onwill be a difficult hurdle to overcome.. Not that he should have fired him in ’05.
Add that to his comments on the 17th and he’s in a deep hole.
Once again, I don’t think he deserves to be fired or forced to resign. But major universities are concerned about image and public opinion maybe the driving force in JB’s future.
Two cents.
Boeheim has a different problem than Paterno although there are similarities. First, Syracuse should have never handled this in house with thier own lawyers. If the police would not investigate due to the statute of limitations, they should have went to the DA. The statute of limitations issue is a procedural one, not substantive and the school had too much of a conflict in looking into it on its own. Now what Boeheim did in this latest episode was just bad. It is fine to come out and defend your friend. And if his statement was that he did not believe the allegations and that he was not going to doubt Fine’s story until he saw or heard more, that would be OK. But he crossed the line to attack the victim. He called him a liar several times, said it was all about the money, really went after this guy hard. That is fine – but you better be right if you do that. Forget Penn State. If Bernie Fine did what he is accused of (and I’m still not sure) it is horrendous and whether Penn State was out there or not it should be dealt with the same way. This is still a University. Like Paterno, Boeheim is the face of the school. When you think of Syracuse University you think of one thing and one thing only, Jim Boeheim. The school needs to be aware of it. Boeheim should retire effective the end of this season. He should go out with all the fanfare he deserves for being one of the great college coaches in the history of the sport. He should not be treated like Paterno is at this point, unless he knew more than he says. Bomer and Carton this morning were talking about it and Carton (a cuse alum) is calling for him to be fired right now. If that type of media pressure continues, the school will not be able to keep him. Good luck.
The investigation was by an independent firm, not in house lawyers
And if there is no police investigation….how, exactly, does the DA get involved?
The DA can do it's own investigation...
…and certainly would have if such serious allegations were made. And no firm is independant if being paid by the University. It’s just not a smart move. Now if these allegations are true, the University’s independant investigation looks shody. The police did not investigate because the time limit to charge Fine passed. That is much different than not investigating because they found no merit. This is only going to get worse at this point. Cuse needs to be carefull.
If the school's independent investigation is "shoddy"
They came to the same conclusion as the P-S and ESPN, and that was without having this tape.
And so after the cops, ESPN, and the P-S found nothing, the university was contacted and then what? They should just not do an investigation? They should call the media-whore DA who agreed that the statute of limitations was up and nothing could be done?
You're not reading what I am writing.
I did not say the investigation was shoddy – I said it “looks” shoddy. Especially when you have the head coach slicing up the accuser. At the end of the day, when you are a University attracting students and atheletes, what it looks like is just as important as what it is. And really, I think that the University should have contacted the DA to cover itself. Remember, the Police did not investigate anything because the statute was up. Is what is going on now better than having the DA look at it then? What would the harm have been? The DA would have investigated it, no doubt. I don’t know much about operations upstate, but on Long Island, DA offices in both Nassau and Suffolk routinely conduct investigations. The Suffolk DA did a grand jury investigation into Church abuses a few years ago where charges could not be brought because of the statute of limitations but it disclosed a great deal. This is not the same as the Penn State mess, but the school does itself no favors by putting the face of the school in front of cameras calling a potential child abuse victim a liar and extortionist and also claiming it is did everything that could be expected of it. It is inviting everyone to dig deeper to prove them wrong.
No Coach Is Safe
How long has Hopkins been an assistant coach? There is no reason to believe he in less in-the-know, as some accuse Boeheim as being, of Bernie Fine activities…
Orange you glad it's not football season?
Why do you people not get this?
Boeheim being fired would have NOTHING to do with knowledge of anything, it would have to do with his comments to the media calling the accusers liars.
Hopkins didn’t make such irresponsible comments to the media. Knowledge of anything a-la Penn State is not happening here, and nobody is pretending it is. The rest of the coaching staff is in the clear.
by cuse2012 on Nov 28, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I would have thought that to be obvious but I guess not.
Are people really upset with Boeheim calling them liars? I mean, I think he was justified in believing Fine’s innocence, given his personal history and the hotel room thing; obviously he didn’t know for sure that they were lying, but why should his candor be punished?
I don’t think he was too quick to rush to judgment, although that judgment ultimately turned out to be wrong because of the tape that no one knew about until yesterday.
I don’t expect anyone to know everything with 100% certainty before they speak their mind, and say what they feel. At the end of the day, Boehiem’s comments didn’t do anything with the investigation, and I guess its not nice that the accusers were called liars, but its not like they gave up and stopped going on ESPN after Boeheim’s comments. No harm no foul.
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
There is plenty of harm....
When a man of JB’s stature and influence in college sports goes on national TV and calls a potential child abuse victim a liar and extorsionist, it has a chilling effect on anyone else who may want to come forward. Just look at the response on here and how many., many people cheered JB’s comments. It would have been fine for him to simply support Fine and say he did not believe the allegations were true. But he went further and attempted to shut down the accuser by calling him out. And let’s remember, this is a University – not a professional sports franchise. A college coach has a different responsibility as does a University. One thing Penn State did right was to acknowledge the victims and show some compasion. While this case does not seem to be as clear cut as Penn State as to the allegations, you can’t go out and slam the alleged victim when all the facts have yet to be shown. That is why when you make the statement JB made, you just have to be right.
by redmen9194 on Nov 28, 2011 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't know what the SU investigation concluded as.
The investigation that SU did is the key here. If it said their was no corroboration or further evidence for a case its one thing. If the law firm concluded that the Victim was most likely lying and out for money then JB would be completely covered in saying what he said.
That makes sense, but thats not what happened.
If anything the opposite happened and the 3rd accuser came forward after all of this, and IIRC before the tapes incriminated Fine earlier.
And, like I said, there’s nothing that suggests the comments had a chilling effect on Davis,
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
*further
before the tapes incriminated Fine further. oops
Lacks knowledge or information sufficient to form a belief
by Rocket Ship Science on Nov 28, 2011 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
Because a public figure like this calling them liars and saying they are out for money
'Cuse 2010, Michigan 2012
Outside the box thinking
First, Boeheim needs to put out a serious, face-to-face apology. Next, they need to reach out to Bobby and see if they can work things out. Bobby Davis wanted Bernie Fine. I don’t see a problem where Bobby Davis offers support for Boeheim. Seriously. Davis opened the worm can when he accused JB of knowing about the abuse. So, time for everyone to make up and turn their attention to Bernie Fine. This is like Penn St in regards to who is taking heat. Bernie Fine is barely getting any run and everyone is killing Boeheim; same thing where Sandusky got a pass while Paterno took the media fall.
Let’s move on. A united front. SU, Boeheim and Bobby Davis. If Boeheim had a public appearance offering support to Davis and other victims, that would do a lot of damage to Fine’s reputation. That is the person we need to target. Everyone gets what they want.
There is no tangible reason for Boeheim to be fired tomorrow...
that does not exist today. If, as ezcuse and cuse2012 keep saying, the reason for his dismissal would be he inartful comments defending Fine, there is no reason for him to be around. The statements have been made and Fine’s guilt or innocence will not change them. if the University is going to fire him as a face saving move, sooner is better than later. And they didn’t do it sooner.
Boeheim did exactly what he said he would do:
Defend a dear friend until there was reason not to. The tape is pretty damning and now Boeheim has finally decided to use the advice from his counsel. I think everyone (including Boeheim) agrees that he could have handled it differently had he not let emotion get in the way but I can’t blame him. Must be a real tough spot to be in. I don’t think he’s done anything worthy of termination.
He didn't simply defend Fine
He outright called the accusers liars and golddiggers. There’s a huge line between directly attacking and bullying them in a way that could discourage others from coming forward and stating his faith in Bernie.
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