"It’s good for Marcus to have this legal process behind him...As you know, the university has a student judicial process. Until that is complete, I cannot discuss any details."
Doug Marrone on Marcus Sales. He makes a good point. If there's anything tougher than the U.S. Government legal system, it's the SU Judicial Board. Marcus ain't playing this year, folks.
7 months ago
Sean Keeley
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Get his act together
Marcus needs to get his act together, get re-enrolled for spring semester, act like a good citizen and get ready for 2012. Can’t see him getting back on the team this year when he’s not currently an active student.
He is currently enrolled at Syracuse as a student (It was released by the University plus you can search on syr.edu).
Philly born and raised with plenty of Orange in my blood!
by fantasybc88 on Oct 27, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Marcus was never suspended from school, just the team.
Or at least, he is in school now.
With the charges being dropped I doubt the Judicial board will suspend him. Probation and mandatory activities/ community service are probably in his future though.
Clear eyes, full bologna sandwiches!
I dunno
I always thought Marrone would have just kicked him off the team if there was ZERO chance he would play this year.
SU judicial board could determine he already served his suspension – 7 games for a traffic violation is a pretty hefty pricetag.
http://cusepulp.blogspot.com/
I wouldn't say that
Look at other athletes who have been in similar situations. Devo with the assualt cause, Rick, Jonny and Scoop with the alleged sexual assault, Melo with the windshield siper handle incident, Scoop again with the SUper card thing.
I don’t mean to imply that the Judicial Board favors athletes, but there’s plenty of precedent for athlete’s to get in trouble, have whatever criminal complaint dropped against them in court, and then the Judicial Board follows suit and does little or nothing.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Oct 27, 2011 10:18 AM EDT reply actions
Billy Edelin may disagree with that statement...
"Sit down!" - 90% of the old people at the dome. "Higgins, you stink!" - Shouted while standing by the awesome 10%
by someguyonacomputer on Oct 27, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
But one case out of five is the exception, not the rule.
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Oct 27, 2011 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Especially for the "Hero" of the Pinstripe Bowl! hahahaha!
I do think that he will have “served his time” with the 7 game suspension. Also IRAB82, I believe he is an active student, that is what I have read everywhere. FREE M.Sales!!!!!!!!!
My guess is he doesn't, and shouldn't, play this year...
The team already has receivers who have stepped up and made plays this season in Marcus’s absence. Nassib has a report with these guys, the season is just about 3/4 of the way done and i don’t see how inserting Sales into the lineup makes the team any better at this point. He is also not in game condition, obviously, because he hasn’t played any games this season. Would love to see him back on the team, but not until next season.
My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable.
judicial review?
didn’t this happen before classes started? It was off campus “back in his hometown”. The charges were dropped. Why would there be a judicial review?
Good point
Does the Judicial Board even have jurisdiction in an off-campus incident?
"If I ain't gonna be part of the greatest, I gotta be the greatest myself." Busta Rhymes
by FeloniousPhunk on Oct 27, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure they do
If you’re a student, you’re subject to judicial review. It’s a private school so they can make up any rules they want regarding this.
Someone smarter than me can answer for sure though.
http://cusepulp.blogspot.com/
by Lots of Pulp on Oct 27, 2011 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
And it’s Judicial Affairs, not the Judicial Board. When you’re a student here, you can be arrested in Kazakhstan. If it gets back to the school, you’ll have to see them. This is common at most schools, from what I hear (couldn’t tell you the actual stats on that though).
Likewise, if you’re a student at, say, BC, and you’re written up by anyone with the power to write you up (BTW, OJA doesn’t have this power), OJA will forward that to BC and let them do with it what they will.
Would he have the ability to play next season?
would they give him a redshirt?
Since the early 1990's I have not been able to get Mike Hopkins' bloody face out of my brain. I don't remember what game it was but I'll never forget that as my first memory of SU basketball. Mike Hopkins, bloody face, bloody nose, all for the love of Syracuse.
I mean seriously?
I want to know, anybody???
Since the early 1990's I have not been able to get Mike Hopkins' bloody face out of my brain. I don't remember what game it was but I'll never forget that as my first memory of SU basketball. Mike Hopkins, bloody face, bloody nose, all for the love of Syracuse.
That's up to Marrone.
Sales has a year of eligibility remaining.
If Sales gets his degree in May, he would have to attend Grad School.
Ok, thanks
clears things up
Since the early 1990's I have not been able to get Mike Hopkins' bloody face out of my brain. I don't remember what game it was but I'll never forget that as my first memory of SU basketball. Mike Hopkins, bloody face, bloody nose, all for the love of Syracuse.
All I'm going to say
Is that, in my time following and now posting on this blog, the views of the SU judicial system (and often individual cases) by people who post here is very, very ignorant. Sean does a great job here, and the vast majority of posters are intelligent and insightful, but I’ve never seen one post here that was informed and/or truthful on this.
/rant
So we are wrong for pretending they rule with an iron fist and smite the guilty with the shield of justice?
Or are we right?
Born in '87, Orange fan since '86
by StealthTurkey on Oct 27, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
You're wrong
There is a difference between the board and judicial affairs. The University has set standards that OJA and the board have to follow. That isn’t set by that office. The vast majority of the cases discussed on here (and for everyone else, too) never even see a board. The office often suggests they go to a board because they DON’T rule with an iron fist, but the student opts not to.
Again, there is very little understanding on the process of the whole thing here.
Also
A lot of times sanctions come down on cases where people on here think they know 100% of the facts but really only know 30% of them, if that. This board jumps the gun and assumes A LOT.
I was only being facetious by the way,
I don’t really have any insight to what happens on the inside, and therefore have no real opinion either way.
Born in '87, Orange fan since '86
by StealthTurkey on Oct 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Having to deal with the Judical board personally I disagree
Also the Syracuse DA’s office has criticized the university for their investigations in the past. There is very little burden of proof. I’ll see if I can find some links for you before, but there is a legitimate reason that our judicial board isn’t that far off from the Soviet Russian system. Its a reputation they have earned.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
First of all
Judicial Affairs =/= the judicial board.
Second of all, the sanctions and the rules they have to follow is set by the Board of Trustees, who are incredibly slow to change things. Most would agree that the system needs to change, but that isn’t on OJA.
Its all part of the same process
Maybe the board is the last step, but the bottom line is the university has a process which is not representative of a free and fair society or one that in any way resembles our real judicial system. Saying anything else is very misleading.
I’ve gone in for JA, and I’ve seen how they railroad people for minor issues like being in a dorm room that had an open container, even if its not your place. Its a everyone is guilty unless you can prove you are not thing. Thats really unfair.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I would never say it's the same as the real judicial process
Because it isn’t and it isn’t painted as such. It is made pretty clear that it isn’t a court of law, the University would find itself in deep shit if it was. Nothing would be accomplished. Now, I’m the most libertarian person on the planet, so I’d rather see “nothing get accomplished” in that respect, but the school has to cover it’s own ass.
Being written up for that issue isn’t being “railroaded”, it’s a policy set forth by the school and ORL, not OJA.
So basically you are confirming my statement
The university has set up a system where there is basically no burden of proof, little evidence and little ways to appeal the decisions. Its a system that was designed for them to always come out on top, not to create a fair result.
Its possible this has changed in the last 10 years, but doubtful. The Billy Edelin case is a good example of the Judicial system going overboard. I found one link to the story, but its paid. I’ll see if I can find something else.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
No
There is plenty burden of proof. Of the last 8 hearings or so that I’ve sat on, probably 5 or 6 of them were thrown out because of a lack of proof. And the other two weren’t thrown out because the student admitted to parts of their violation. I don’t think I’ve ever sat on a board where the student was deemed responsible for every count without a voluntary admission. And there are, what, 4 different outlets to appeal your case to? What more do you want?
A cheeseburger.
Born in '87, Orange fan since '86
by StealthTurkey on Oct 27, 2011 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
So a district attorney criticizing the university process = teen complaining
This isn’t some sports fan mouthing off on a message board. This was the DA of the city putting out an official press release that the universities process was draconian and unfair. To have someone of this stature make official statements slamming the university is virtually unheard of.
Sorry but I am going to take the word of a prosecuting attorney involved with the actual cases, over some random poster who is obviously extremely biased to the process because they were personally involved in hearing them.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant the Judicial Affairs
Still its not honest to pretend that there is a fair judicial system at our university. The burden of proof is a joke, and people have been railroaded with virtually no real evidence.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Great so now we have an expert, Thanks cuse2012! We will come to you for all of our board info.
so what IS the truth on this case and what IS going to happen cuse2012?
I can't talk about specific cases
That would be a violation of federal laws. Even if I could, I know nothing of this case. But I will say, a lot of times I read “Uh-oh, here comes the Nazi Judicial Board”, yet most of the time that case never even goes to a board. And that’s on the student, no one else. And most of the time you guys post “damn, that’s not so bad”, it’s because it did go to a board. And OJA is starting to tell students that, but that advice seems to be rarely listened to.
If you want to know how the system works- the student will go to a judicial counselor who will offer them an informal resolution. Probably 95% of the time this is agreed to by the student. If they don’t accept it goes to a board. If they are found responsible by the board, by rule (established by the University), the standard sanctions have to be followed. If they disagree with that finding, then they can take it to an appeals board made up of faculty. That’s basically a SparkNotes version.
Here's the thing
LSU let those players come back shortly after charges were reduced (not even dropped), this year. Those guys played right away.
I know we’re not LSU, but don’t we want to be? No charges, no problem, at least to me.
Let. Him. Play.
http://cusepulp.blogspot.com/
This isn't good
China’s Judicial system is fair compared to the asshats that sit on the universities board. The burden of proof is completely on the student (unless its changed since 01). The people who work there are generally on a power trip.
When a cities DA has to come out and criticize our universities system as being a joke, there is a massive problem.
Burden of proof isn't on the student
The board needs to determine that it is “more likely than not”. The University doesn’t have detectives and CSI-like equipment around to disprove an alibi, and they need to be able to cover their own ass in this day and age of “my kid is doing drugs and the school is responsible!” It isn’t perfect, and getting anything to change (which most in OJA or on the Board agree needs to happen) is a slow process that is up to the Board of Trustees.
The people who work there are generally on a power trip.
Are there some? Sure. The majority? Not even close.
The facts and conjecture
We know Marcus was charged with a series of crimes. They have all subsequently been dismissed. After he was charged, Marcus was kicked off the team. He is currently a student at Syracuse. Judicial Affairs is looking into his actions. These are the facts. And as far as I can tell, everything else is opinion and/or conjecture.
Some have pointed to LSU’s handling of Jefferson as an argument for why Marcus should immediately be reinstated. Let’s let Les Miles do his thing and Doug Marrone do his.
Besides knowing way more about football than me (something I like in a football coach), I have the utmost respect for HCDM. I think you’d be hard-pressed to come up with a specific incident where he clearly handled a situation without integrity. And while our football players have had their fair share of incidents under his watch, I think he’s changed the demeanor of this team, not only in the locker room, but in the eyes of the community. And so I’m going to trust HCDM on this one. If he decides to reinstate Marcus and have him play immediately, I’ll back him. If he refuses to allow him to rejoin the team, I’m sure he has a solid reason, and I’ll back him. I’m sure HCDM knows a lot more about Marcus’ character and the facts of this case than I do and based on HCDM’s track record, he’s earned my trust for however he chooses to handle this incident.
http://twitter.com/#!/TeabagDunk
Two links a.bout the univeristiy process
Cuse 2012, are you coming up to graduate now? How familiar are you with the past problems of the university. I know you hold this process in extremely high regard, so I am guessing you might not be familiar with its past failings. I’m guessing if you are just graduating, that happen when you were around 12 or so which explains your lack of knowledge on the past. However , you should read these links to start.
http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/index.ssf/2008/08/the_worst_kept_secret_in_town.html
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2008/08/no_grand_jury_charges_to_be_fi.html
The university really screwed up in this case, and even worse in with Billy. If you are interested in learning more about some of the missteps, I can provide you some more hard examples. However if you are going to continue to pretend that the process is great, there really isn’t much of a reason to continue.
This part is especially damming
“Fitzpatrick said he was adamant about having a grand jury look into the matter because of controversy surrounding allegations involving SU basketball player Billy Edelin several years ago. Edelin was suspended by SU in 2001 based on allegations from two female students of unwanted sexual conduct. But the District Attorney’s Office decided not to file criminal charges.
Given controversy over that matter, Fitzpatrick said he was determined never again to allow SU to proceed with a campus disciplinary proceeding where criminal wrongdoing is alleged without initiating a grand jury investigation."
The person refused to work with police, but worked out a behind the scenes deal with the university. If that doesn’t scream a miscarriage of justice, nothing does. It lead to the DA putting out the statement below, because he felt the students needed to be protected from an overactive Judicial System @ Syracuse.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I have never “defended the process as great”, I can poke more holes in the process than anyone, and I have voiced my concerns with them many, many times. However, pointing the blame of it at the student Judicial Board (who would not have heard that case) or OJA (none of which is still around from that case, and today at least would not have had any hand in the decision, a faculty board would have) like this board does time after time after time is flat out ignorance.
Also, charges dropped in a court of law does not equate innocence in the eyes of the University, something that is not a decision made by OJA or the judicial board.
The only point I’ve been making this whole time is that you all want to string up the wrong people. You don’t blame a cold on your nose.
Your arguing semantics
The process is awful and the bottom line is the university has created a system which is extremely unfair. You keep acting like the different groups involved are nothing more than soldiers following orders. Thats fine, but the bottom line is that the judicial process at our university, as a whole is an absolute joke.
Sorry if that hurts your feelings that I am criticizing a group you are obviously associated with. However I have seen 0 proof other than, trust me I used to be involved, that the system has improved from when I graduated, or Billy Edelin, or the 2008 fiasco.
The main complaint from this board, from the media and from the freaking DA of the city is that the process is extraordinarily draconian and is rigged against the student. Anyone who is knowledgeable about the levels of proof needed by the University and the mistakes of the past would have a hard time proving this wrong.
by CapitalOrange on Oct 27, 2011 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
That's understandable
And most of which I do agree with, and I’d say many people involved in the process recognize it and agree with it. However, it is very obnoxious and ignorant when we have the “power trip” accusation thrown at us all the time. Plus, it really takes away from anyone who gets thrown into the process. People are afraid to move through it because they see it as that way, and instead just go ahead and accept the informal resolution. It is VERY beneficial for those with not much against them to have it go to a hearing, because people just like them sit on it. I’ve had a lot of friends get written up for something BS say “damn I should’ve taken it to a hearing” in retrospect.
The best thing is (probably) to bring back Marcus next season
If he comes back this season, his final season of eligibility will include only 6 games. It will also be against teams in midseason form while he is, presumably, just getting his legs under him. Maybe he has been working out phenomenally hard, but just look at Chris Johnson – he’s a professional athlete who held out for about 6 weeks and “trained independently” – the guy looks like a shadow of himself. Bring Marcus back next year when he has a chance to play to his potential, this will maximize his contribution to the team and give him the best chance to be a legitimate pro prospect.
Regarding the SU judicial system, my impression is that most colleges have totally absurd systems in place. My college certainly did. I remember reading the policies and protocols and thinking that, basically, you could get booted from school or have a permanent stain on your record with virtually no recourse. I remember reading some new proposed protocols my senior year that indicated that you could have a lawyer present, but the lawyer could not speak on your behalf and you could not consult your lawyer during the judicial meeting. Brilliant. All this talk reminds me of this quote…
“University politics are vicious precisely because the stakes are so small.”
- Henry Kissinger
If anything, we have a relatively good syste
Smaller schools, and even some our size or bigger, don’t even have similar outlets to defend yourself. That doesn’t mean there aren’t a billion problems with ours, but I’m guessing similar instances at a school like LeMoyne would leave you SOL for something rooted in nothing. I’d love to see a ton of changes made, a lot of it outrages me (which is why I wanted to become a part of it), but it seems we are much closer to having it right than most other schools do.
Interesting that you couldn’t even have a lawyer present before. You may have misinterpreted the part about not consulting them (or it changed), you can consult them all you want. They just can’t be the one addressing the board.
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