Big Ten Expansion and the Orange
by SlingStone on Jan 30, 2010 3:10 PM EST
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PrintThis started on Black Shoes Diaries where folks were discussing this article about Big Ten expansion from Frank the Tank's Chicago sports blog. The article and the first follow up make a pretty strong case for Texas, and through which illustrates why almost any school would at least consider joining the Big Ten.
Here is the annual TV revenue for each conference as reported by ESPN’s Outside the Lines last month along with the average for each school:
- Big Ten: $242 million ($22 million per school)
- SEC: $205 million ($17.08 million per school)
- Big 12: $78 million ($6.5 million per school)
- ACC: $67 million ($5.58 million per school)
- Pac-10: $58 million ($5.8 million per school)
- Big East: $13 million for football/$20 million for basketball ($2.8 million per football school)
Take a look at those figures for a moment – every single Big Ten school makes almost twice as much TV revenue every year as the ENTIRE Big East football conference and even makes more than the entire Big East basketball contract (which that conference’s greatest strength). There is no rational president of a Big East university that is fulfilling his or her fiduciary responsibility to such university that would turn down an invitation from the Big Ten for any reason whatsoever (whether it’s what the basketball coach says or anything else).
Now there is a lot of armchair economics and speculation involved in trying to cut up the Big Ten revenue pie. I’m no tv executive, so I’ll leave it up to them to decide if 12 or 14 is the best for their conference and current situation.
BUT, let’s assume the suits decide it’s in the Big Ten’s interest to go up to 14, if they can get the right schools.
Thinking like a University President and a Cable TV executive, Texas A&M is more likely to come along with Texas than Oklahoma as some have hoped. A&M's academics are better: US News and World Report #61 and AAU member. They’re old SWC members too, so they don’t have as much invested in the Big Twelve. There’s also political pressure for Texas and A&M to be paired together (because football is that sort of priority for Texas Governors and legislature).
For a third new member, often Nebraska or Mizzou, the academics may be just too low even though both are AAU members. In this case I think they’ll either go for Notre Dame or Syracuse. Both are definitely up to par academically.
Notre Dame is Notre Dame. They may be against joining out of spite or because Catholicism doesn’t get along with the CIC and AAU. It’s a bigger obstacle than you might think.
I think Syracuse would join in a heartbeat. The monetary differences between the Big Ten and the Big East make it an easy decision, rivalries and basketball be damned.
Now some folks strongly disagreed with me, saying that Syracuse's Alumni and President would rather die than give up Big East basketball and the old rivalries.
I doubt that's true. I think the security of the Big Ten and the ridiculous increase in tv money would trump alumni grumbling in the end. That’s not even considering the academic and research benefits. Any Big East school president would be violating his fiscal and academic responsibilities by rejecting an offer to the Big Ten.
But that's only my opinion. I thought I'd come ask your fanbase directly.
Are the revenue and academic benefits good enough for Syracuse to become the 12th or 14th member of the Big Ten? Does it make a difference if it's as the 12th member or the 14th member?
p.s. Please don't take this as any sign of ill will. I'm a Pitt fan and I love playing against Syracuse. I think you're vital to the health of the Big East. I just think the potential benefits of joining the Big Ten are too overwhelming for any school with both academic and athletic aspirations to ignore.
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texas
and texas a&m can’t join the big 11. we’ve gone over this already….big ten bylaws state that a new member university must reside in a state that touches a current member of the big ten. (ie: if the acc was the big ten, boston college wouldn’t have been asked in).
so it’s not gonna happen. also, when i think midwest, texas is the first thing that comes to mind.
Bylaws
I think you’re granting bylaws more power than they actually have. Bylaws in general can be overturned rather easily for the good of the conference and this particular bylaw is a relic of a past time in which travel was more cost-prohibitive.
A conference bylaw is not what would stop Texas from joining the Big Ten; it’s Texas legislature that has interest and influence with the football schools of the state.
actually there are no bylaws
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 31, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
link below select rittenburgs article
http://www.blackshoediaries.com/2009/12/16/1204012/what-are-the-rules-for-expansion
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 31, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
IMO
Yes, only if ticket prices go way down.
If SU is greedy and keeps the same ticket prices, then F Gross, and I’d rather stay in the Big East.
I stand firmly
AGAINST…..as I have from the beginning. I was against he ACC (despite the fact that live in ACC territory) and I’m against jioning the Big ten as well. Basketball would never be the same. Football wouldnt either. Hell, Ive finally gotten used to Luoisville, Cincy and USF as ‘rivals’. I wouldnt trade anything for the hoops matchups against the Hoyas, Huskies and Nova
Fiduciary Duty
It’s not necessary true that a university president would violate his or her fiduciary duty to the board of trustees, faculty, alumni, students, etc by rejecting a Big 10 bid. Even in a publicly traded corporation, the Board of Directors has a fiduciary duty to maximize profit and protect the company’s “brand.” For instance, Disney could conceivably make millions by producing R-rated films, however Disney chooses not to in order to protect it’s family-friendly image. Because Disney’s brand is so valuable they would certainly survive any litigation by a shareholder suing to force Disney to produce R-rated films.
Likewise, Nance the Chance would not violate her fiduciary duty to the school if she rejects a Big 10 bid to protect Syracuse’s brand and image a Big East school. She could argue that existing rivalries, the Eastern coast location of donors, regional recruiting, and fan base would outweigh additional TV revenue from Big 10 membership.
by cuselaw on Jan 30, 2010 6:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha
Disney pretty much does produce R-rated films, you just have to know where to look
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73fCLx-mFLg
by devodidnthitanybody on Jan 31, 2010 2:11 AM EST up reply actions
Would we join the Big Ten?
Yes, and it wouldn’t matter whether it was as the 12th team or part of some larger expansion. It would be absolutely financially insane not to.
As a practical matter, I like the idea of SU in a 12-team Big Ten with geographically logical divisions (i.e. don’t worry that the Big Ten east looks a lot stronger than the Big Ten west in football) a lot better than I like the 8/16 team Big East. I’d prefer a northeastern-based all-sports conference to either, but for any animal along those lines to be workable, it needs BC and Penn State along with us, Pitt, WVU, Rutgers, and UConn … and some others to get to 9, 10, or 12 schools.
I loathe the idea of being in the Big Ten
As a person who grew up in Happy Valley and now attends PSU law, I have watched the Big Ten for years. For Penn State, its a natural fit, at least at this stage after being a member for so many years. I have watched TONS of big ten football/basketball, and its awful. Boring, slow, awful. Its fine for them, schools like OSU/PSU/UM score heavy points with national credibility in football, MSU and OSU usually hold national credibility afloat in basketball, but there is nothing there of value, from an SU fan perspective, unless you are heavily skewed towards football and look forward to the prospect of being a middle of the pack team in a Midwestern conference. I understand that if offered, we’ll jump. The money makes a lot of sense. It would be a boon for the university to gain that much extra income. And I also have hope that Coach Doug will tun things around, whatever conference we’re in, and make SU a more respectable outfit, regardless of conference. But I’m not a football guy. I’m a basketball fan, and nothing turns my stomach more than thinking about playing home and homes against Northwestern and Penn State and Michigan and every other school in the conference, save MSU and OSU. We are not a Big Tenleven school. We are a part of the best basketball conference ever created. In my mind, if the Big Ten wants us, its inevitable. We’re going. And when that happens, I’ll follow SU as closely as I do now. But it will never feel right to be in that conference. I’ll never care about a matchup as much as I do when we play UConn, Gtown, Nova, or even the St Johns and Providences of the conference. Nothing will ever seem as urgent, as important, or as meaningful as those regular season matchups, let alone the half-week of heaven that is the Big East tourney in MSG. I know its somewhat selfish on my part, when thinking about the future of the school I love so much, to think only in terms of what the future means to me as an SU hoops fan. That said, at this point that is my (and so many other alums) biggest connection to the school postgrad. That sense of history and importance MEANS something to SU fans/alums. It brings us closer together and, even when watching from our computers, brings us back to the hill for a few hours.
Big Ten, yes please
This was a huge subject for me when the official announcement came out, but now I’m starting to feel like nothing will happen in the end.
First of all, the bylaws are meaningless. Notre Dame isn’t AAU, and we all know how much the B10 wanted them.
Pretty much any team in the Big East will accept an invitation. People who say “Syracuse will never leave the Big East!” are clueless. Don’t you remember how we had our bags packed for the ACC but were turned down at the last minute? If you are against SU joining the B10, then I say you’re either not a graduate, or have your priorities all wrong. The Big Ten is like the baby Ivy League. Remember that the Ivy League is nothing more than an old football conference name. It’d be huge for our academic reputation. I live in NYC and would lose the BE tourney, but … come on, man. It’s the Big Ten.
My time spent at SU, I always felt like it was pretty Midwest-y. Granted, I’m from NJ. I’ve been hoping for this for years. One thing I haven’t seen on any website discussing the Big Ten expansion, is that if a school like SU were to join, they’d have a serious lockdown on journalism schools. SU being arguably the best sports journalism school has got to be a nice bonus. My memory is foggy, but I know that SU, Michigan, and Northwestern all have great J schools. Kansas? Mizzou? Help me out here.
I hope Texas doesn’t join the Big Ten. Not just because it severely lowers our chances of being invited, but it just doesn’t feel right. Yes, it worked in the Big East with Miami, but the geography always turned me off. Ideally, we could make an all Northeast league, but that’s not gonna happen. Yes, a lot of possible schools aren’t Midwest, but at least most of them border existing schools.
What I’d like to see is a raid of the Big East. Take 3 schools: SU, Rutgers, Pitt, or UConn. Taking the B10 to 14. Then the rest of the leagues expand to 14 (picking up whoever wasn’t taken) and we have mega conferences. I feel like the Big East is going to break off from the bball schools, anyway.
Can someone explain to me WHY the Big 10 gets that much revenue?
I don’t think that the Big 10 has that much national appeal. Does an Iowa/Wisconsin game mean anything to anybody? Sure… the OSU/UM game from a few years ago was cool and must-see football. But how often does that happen? And, while Iowa/OSU was a great game from a football standpoint, the OSU/USC and OSU/Texas games were much more of “must see” football.
If it is regional… how is the Midwest more important than the Southeast and West Coast? Is it the weather… more fat asses in the Midwest in front of TVs?
It just has me curious.
alumnae bases are pretty substantial
"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week. "
George S Patton
by psu in the w-b on Jan 31, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
It's not complicated
Lots of big state schools with huge alumni bases, huge stadiums, passionate football fans, and tradition out the yin-yang in one of the more populous regions of the country — one that cares far more about college football than the most densely populated part of the country (that’s the northeast, natch) and because actually living in the midwest sucks (trust me, I’m from Ohio, and now live on the west coast — I’m an Orange fan because I went to high school in Syracuse and went to a division III school so my allegiances didn’t change then) there are Big Ten alumni all over the place.
Still, the SEC is right up there with the Big Ten on TV revenue. It’s not quite as much, despite more schools, because SEC fans rarely move out of SEC country so you don’t get much of an audience outside the southeast.
Also
My opinion is that Syracuse should only join the Big East if it appears that another team is going to jump. If the Big East football schools all agreed to stick together (in some sort of contractual way that was not easily breakable as in B.C.), then I am fine with staying in the Big East.
The Big 10 with Missouri is fine with me. The Big 12 can easily add another team to survive without setting off dominoes of conference destruction.
It's possible adding Mizzou would set off few dominoes...
… and the Big 12 would just add TCU or Utah and not much changes. But it’s also possible the Big Ten adding a Big 12 school sets off dominoes that shatter the Big 12, or even just indirectly affect us (if, say, the Big 12 could persuade Arkansas to replace Mizzou, then the SEC probably grabs an ACC team as the replacement — Georgia Tech and Clemson have long histories with most of the SEC, and FSU was an SEC expansion target once before — and that leaves the ACC casting eyes at the Big East again; alternatively, the notion of Louisville or WVU or USF in the SEC doesn’t seem absurd).
It’s probably in the best intersets of the BCS if the Big 12 splits, really. A revived Big 8 and SWC could snatch up TCU, BYU, Utah, and Boise without too many problems, and with that co-opt the outsiders with the strongest axes to grind against the current set-up.
Joining the Big Ten...if offered...
…is a no-brainer. The Big East, on the field, goes toe to toe with the Big 10 (in football – in basketball, the BEast blows away the Big 10). However, perception is reality, and money talks. How in our right minds could we turn down an offer to join? Why, because we wouldn’t play Providence in basketball anymore? Personally, I could give a shit.
"(BARF)" - Donovan McNabb, during his game winning drive against Virginia Tech in 1998
If offered, I think Syracuse would go.
Financially it makes sense, but I don’t like it. I think our football team would plateau at mediocre and our basketball program would slowly slip to being relatively mediocre as well. The recruits we get now would not be so quick to come to Cuse and the product on the floor would suffer as the coaching staff tries to learn a new recruiting territory. Plus no BE tournament, which would suck.
But the question wasn’t do I want them to go, it was would they and I think they would.
HULK SO TIRED OF BIG TEN EXPANSION TALK!!!
HULK WANT TO SMASH BIG TEN DISCUSSION OVER AND OVER INTO FINE POWDER AND SPRINKLE ON LEAN CUISINE HE’S EATING FOR LUNCH. HULK TIRED OF LEAN CUISINE AND HULK SO TIRED BIG TEN TALK. NO MORE UNTIL SOMETHING ACTUALLY HAPPEN.
HULK SMASH!!!!
by Incredibly Orange Hulk on Feb 1, 2010 1:00 PM EST reply actions
I dont care
as long as we make a life time series with GTown in bball and rutgers is told to go pound sand.
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