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You Can Stop Talking About Big Ten Expansion When You Pry It From Joe Paterno's Cold, Dead Hands

Joe Paterno might have eased off the gas a couple weeks back about demanding the Big Ten add a 12th team...but he's not exactly hitting the brakes just yet.

At last week's Big Ten football meetings in Chicago, Paterno talked up the idea of the conference's adding a 12th team, preferably one that is big in the New York television market, such as Syracuse, Rutgers or Pittsburgh.

That would enable the conference to break into two six-team divisions in which the first-place teams play for the league title, keeping the Big Ten in the public eye and better preparing two teams for bowl contests.

Couple thoughts.

1. Paterno's not wrong for wanting the Big Ten to add a 12th team and a championship game.  That is the future of college football.  Sooner or later, all of the BCS conferences will look like that, so you can keep plugging away under the guise of tradition or you can wake up to the reality that the separation between the have's and have-not's in college football will only continue to grow.  Even if the BCS gets blown up and teams like Utah and BYU get a fair shake at competing for the national title, the major conferences are going to continue putting in measures to ensure they don't lose too many pieces of the pie. 

And the easiest way to do that is to add a championship game.  It brings in revenue.  It adds a ton to your winner's RPI and strength of schedule.  It allows you to keep up with the Joneses (SEC, Big 12).

2. If it did eventually happen, I don't think it would be Syracuse.  At least not right now.  The Big Ten is in no rush to expand so to them, it would have to be a rainmaker offer to make it happen.  That's only going to happen one of two ways.  Either Notre Dame and their national fanbase join the conference or a team with full access to a major media market becomes available.  And I know, we're New York's College Team, but they don't televise our football games every week in New York City.   You know who's games do get televised there every week?  Rutgers.  They're much closer to NYC and have better in-roads at promoting in the Tri-State area.

---------

Gregg Doyel over at CBS Sportsline picks apart Paterno and his ideas, calling him a selfish old turd who wants to loot and ruin a fellow BCS conference, something the ACC already tried and almost succeeded in doing.  In return, Black Shoe Diaries returns the serve and, rightfully, mentions that the Big East is just as culpable of conference-robbing (C-USA) as the ACC was.

To be fair, it's not the classiest thing to do to name-drop teams from another conference as options for expansion.  That's a discussion best left for behind closed doors. 

But if we're all being honest, all this talk about the dissolution of Big East will only get louder as long as the conference remains at such a small size compared to the other BCS conferences and, more importantly, no one from the Big East steps up and becomes a national title contender.  2007 was a fantastic  year for the conference, but it's unfortunately beginning to look more like the exception than the norm.  Last year was a disappointment and Cincinnati's conference title and poor Orange Bowl showing impressed very few around the country.  The conference will probably have no teams in the preseason Top 25 this year.  It's highest profile team, West Virginia, is expected to under-perform, and Syracuse is still a bottom-feeder until proven otherwise. 

Even if folks in the Big Ten don't think expansion is necessary, surely that's a surefire answer for the Big East in terms of putting a stop-loss on rumors for the time being.  Grow the conference a little, show the rest of the country you're not being stagnant, bring in another key market (Villanova/Philly, Navy/Baltimore), balance the conference schedule to 4-and-4.  While the teams race to improve on the field and prove which one will be it's national hope, we can at least send a message to JoePa and the rest of the college football world that Big East football is still something worth fighting for.

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I know the Notre Dame program is struggling as of late but I believe that had they added the football team when the basketball team joined, the Big East would have attracted better teams to it and not be in the shape it is in now. Yes, I know Notre Dame did not want to join for football but just saying that if they could have come to an agreement, maybe things would be better off.

by Orange Chuck on May 28, 2009 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

And I know, we’re New York’s College Team, but they don’t televise our football games every week in New York City.

Here in NYC, I saw every single SU game last year, including the thrilling Akron and Northeastern games. I’m sure it’s because I have like 50 sports channels and Rutgers probably had more of the SNY games, but technically, all the games are televised here.

~K
"As the governor of Louisiana once said, the only way Chris Kelsay can lose his job is if he got caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy."

by Kurupt on May 28, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Like you said

you have a lot of cable channels at your disposal. But you’re more likely to get a Rutgers game on the basic TV package. Technically I could watch every Cuse game here in LA as well if I hooked up DirecTV

by Sean Keeley on May 28, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily true

Even though I have a behemoth Cablevision package, it is not more likely that Rutgers will appear in NYC markets more than SU. The television exposure has more to do with the Big East’s ridiculously stupid contract with ESPN than who is appearing where.

If we just look at basic packages (which includes SNY on Cablevision and Time Warner in the NYC Metro area), SU was on just as much as Rutgers. It almost always works out that way; that’s part of the stupid Big East contract.

I mean jeez, RU played Pitt and the only carrier was ESPN360.com. SU was on ESPNU a lot, but that’s at least television.

I get boned a little bit in Connecticut because Cablevision doesn’t carry ESPNU and Time Warner does, but when you look at the television schedule from last year (http://www.bigeast.org/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=103568&SPID=11215&Q_SEASON=2008), SU was on just as much as Rutgers. And that’s in light of a bare-bones cable package.

Plus, for hoops, I think everyone in the NYC area will attest to the fact that more SU games were available than Rutgers. MSG+ carried some Rutgers games, but that’s about it. SNY only basically missed the TW26-only Syracuse games.

by Hoya Suxa on May 28, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Noted

didnt account for basketball

by Sean Keeley on May 28, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also

I live in NJ, have FiOs and their basic sports package, and I too got every Syracuse game last year. Between all of the channels that you mentioned Hoya Suxa, I think ’Cuse is well-covered in the NYC area.

"(BARF)" - Donovan McNabb, during his game winning drive against Virginia Tech in 1998

by kotite4ever on May 28, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

There have been whispers that Syracuse may eventually move to the Big 10 since 2000 (and maybe before that… 2000 was just when I started attending Syracuse). Even before the talk of a possible move to the ACC there was talk of a possible move to the Big 10.

There’s eventually going to be Big 10 expansion. They’ve been trying to work on Notre Dame for years to convince them to leave the Big East and join them in all sports, including football. Since that’s not going to happen, they’re eventually going to swipe a team from the Big East. Whether it’s Rutgers, or whether it’s Syracuse, or whether it’s Pittsburgh, it’s going to happen.

I don’t think the Big East will exist in 10 years, at least in its current form. If current trends keep up (hope they don’t, but being realistic) there’s a real chance that the Big East is going to be dropped from the BCS in a few years, which could be a huge impetus for change.

by wildcatlh on May 28, 2009 5:07 PM EDT reply actions  

’nova football definitely…what about replacing Depaul with UMass (both bball and fball)?

by stumpycuse on May 28, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions  

If the Big East is raided further...

…then for the sake of survival of the football program, we would absolutely HAVE to petition either the Big 10 or the ACC for membership in their conferences. If Rutgers and/or Pitt is in the Big 10, the Big East would, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist as a functioning football conference. That would be a death knell for the Orange.

"(BARF)" - Donovan McNabb, during his game winning drive against Virginia Tech in 1998

by kotite4ever on May 28, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions  

stop being ridiculous… the state of the football team would be fine; if you think about it, Pitt and/or Rutgers going to the Big 10 would be better for Syracuse. Both of those teams have become medium-sized fish in otherwise small ponds; they would be obliterated in the Big 10 and their recruiting base would completely dry up.

Meanwhile, SU (while still a member of the BCS Big East) would take full advantage of the languishing Pitt and Rutgers programs. SU puts a few good teams together, while Pitt and/or Rutgers fades into obscurity in the Big 10+2 and ‘boom goes the dynamite’, SU is back as a perennial bowl team. Meanwhile, Pitt or Rutgers will inevitably become the next Miami while the other will become the next Temple.

by stumpycuse on May 28, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

But

you cant have a major conference with 7 teams, regardless of who leaves. That’s 6 OOC games a season.

by Sean Keeley on May 29, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

The slightest speculation of a team leaving the Big East is no cause for a Chicken Little approach…that is far too draconian.

whichever team(s) were to ultimately leave, they will be quickly replaced and will quickly benefit from the sexiness that is that Big East/BCS… South Florida and Cincinnati have become household names since entering into the BE, not to mention the emergence of UConn and the resurgence of Rutgers.

The bottom line is that because of the small pool with larger spotlights that is the BE, the propensity for teams to advance more quickly as a result of joining the league is increased. Therefore this success, in conjunction with the media’s desire to capture “David v. Goliath” or “rags-to-riches” stories, the league’s overall survival will never be in jeopardy.

There is no dearth of successful teams in lesser conferences, vis-a-vis East Carolina, Tulsa, or Buffalo, that would love to have their share of the limelight, or FCS schools / Independents in great markets that may want to join the BE for football, such as: UMass, ’Nova, or Army.

At it’s worst, Big East football could become nothing more just than a launching pad for schools to hit the big time in the Big 10+2, Big 12, ACC, or SEC; some of which will be successful (see: Boston College or VPI)…others, not so much (see: Temple or Miami); and as a result, teams like Syracuse may be able to benefit from the added TV exposure and national attention that the Big East would garner.

by stumpycuse on May 29, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

So let me ask you this...

why don’t we invite the Buffalos, East Carolinas, Memphis teams RIGHT NOW so they can grow quicker and be competitive now instead of waiting until someone leaves?

by Sean Keeley on May 29, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

simple

because of the implications on the basketball schedule. The Big East has clearly demonstrated that basketball trumps football (hence why Notre Dame is part of the league strictly for bball and not fball). It would be preposterous to allow an add’l 3 teams in, thereby expanding the total number of Big East teams to 19 teams, only to allow 1/2 of them to participate in football. That would set a dangerous precedent for the remainder of the leagues….

As soon as Buffalo, East Carolina, or Memphis (sans Calipari) prove themselves on the basketball court, as well as the football field, then they can be discussed as legitimate replacement teams for the BE in the event that other teams such as Rutgers and/or Pitt left the league.

by stumpycuse on May 29, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Those schools have mediocre at best academics as well, and the Big East wants to keep the schools within the Syracuse/UConn/Rutgers peer group where possible.

Syracuse '12

by blackknight76 on May 29, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I still think if we add anyone...

… it’s going to be UCF, due to the same kind of logic that got us USF in the first place. Also, that means USF isn’t sitting a thousand miles from everyone else in Tampa, and the two schools hate each other, which makes for a good rivalry.

My expectation is that eventually the sixteen-team mega-Big East is going to fracture on football/basketball lines (though in any context other than a Big East split, calling us, UConn, and Louisville ‘football schools’ would be kind of absurd).

I don’t really like Memphis because that gives us a second schools a long way from everyone else (Memphis is just east of the Arkansas/Tennessee border). And I don’t like ECU because I think it’s completely impossible for a non-ACC team to gain major traction in North Carolina. That’s about as likely as a non-Pac 10 team gaining traction in California.

by drothgery on May 29, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

I would rather see a team with some name recognition in other sports already. Nova would be great. Georgetown, Army and Navy also. If we could get the Army Navy game to be a Big East game it would be great for the league. No one cares about ECU or UCF even if they have the better programs right now.

by ryanwk628 on May 29, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

But...

Nova has almost no interest in upgrading their football program, and no place to play the games (Temple and the Eagles have dibs on the Linc, and their on-campus stadium is too small for FBS football). Georgetown is a non-scholarship program right now (which means they’d need to add several women’s sports to get into title IX compliance if they wanted to move up to scholarship I-AA/FCS, let alone FBS) and would need to borrow Redskins Stadium if they upgraded to FBS. And Army and Navy just aren’t good in major sports and have almost no chance of improving beyond where Navy is now (i.e. if they schedule enough bad teams, they can go 7-5 and get to a bowl).

by drothgery on May 29, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've said in the past

Big East should make Nova an offer to help financially and they could split the Linc with Temple. If the Jets and Giants can share a stadium for 16 games, two college teams could split a stadium for 12. And one of the caveats is that they have to play each other every season.

by Sean Keeley on May 29, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

That picture is god damn scary.

by Orange::44 on May 29, 2009 2:00 AM EDT reply actions  

why 12?

i’m sure i’ve brought this up before, but why is 12 the magic number to have a conf championship? it leads to an unbalanced schedule. if you have 10 teams, that makes 9 games, everyone plays everyone and then you still have 2-3 OOC games.

example: pre-acc douchebaggyness:
acc had 9 teams. they take miami from BE, they now have 10.
big 10 (11) drops the state penn. they now have 10.
sec/big 12 can stay at 12.
pac-10 has 10 already.
mountain-west or whatever the hell utah is in has 10 (pretty sure, no?)
 
so what of us, the big east? we have 7 (kicked temple out) minus miami. that leaves 6. add penn state. 7. louisville and cincy added from conf-usa (which i think makes them go from 12 to 10). that puts us at 9. notre dame would HAVE to join a conference in this case. they’d still have space for 3 OOC games, so they could play army, navy and st mary’s school for the blind every year.

i’m sure there are some other (lesser) conferences that have 10 teams already as well. so now you have conference championships for pretty much all the big bcs conferences. leads to an easy to set up ncaa football tournament.

thoughts?

by tazphan23 on May 29, 2009 8:25 AM EDT reply actions  

ND isn’t going to sacrifice it’s 80000 rivalry games a year, too big of a cash cow.

Syracuse '12

by blackknight76 on May 29, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Actually...

… the MWC has 9 teams (Air Force, BYU, Colorado State, New Mexico, San Diego State, TCU, UNLV, Utah, Wyoming).

The other mid-majors are
WAC – 9 teams
MAC – 13 teams
Sun Belt – 8 teams

by drothgery on May 29, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

It's NCAA rules
i’m sure i’ve brought this up before, but why is 12 the magic number to have a conf championship? it leads to an unbalanced schedule. if you have 10 teams, that makes 9 games, everyone plays everyone and then you still have 2-3 OOC games.

You need to have at least 12 teams to play a conference championship game. The NCAA rule that allowed conference championship games was introduced to help a lower-division conference that never actually played one… and then the SEC noticed it and raided Arkansas from the SWC and South Carolina from the ACC to play one. The ACC applied for a waiver to play one in the year they had 11 teams but didn’t get it.

You need at least 9 teams to play the 8-game regular season that everyone except the Pac 10 plays.

by drothgery on May 29, 2009 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

i realize that

12 is the ncaa rule. i’m just wondering how they got 12 and bring up a point that if they make it 10, it would easily set up a playoff system.

by tazphan23 on May 29, 2009 1:50 PM EDT reply actions  

With ten it's kind of silly to play a championship game

You can play a full round-robin in 9 games which renders a championship game meaningless short of a tie that can’t be resolved by head-to-head. Even with 8, you’re only missing one opponent a year and the odds are excellent the two best will play each other; the Pac 10, the pre-Penn State Big Ten, and the pre-South Carolina and Arkansas SEC did this for years.

by drothgery on May 29, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Big East With 12

North Division
Syracuse
Pittsburgh
Rutgers
UConn
Villanova
Delaware

South Division
West Virginia
Cincinnati
South Florida
Louisville
Memphis
East Carolina

Do it.

by Sean Keeley on May 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT reply actions  

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